Feminism and the Disposable Male

[Gooders1002]

I though this was interesting and I would though I would share.



Your thoughts?

[TaraJo]

Lemme start with a graphic I found that illustrates a lot of what I feel about gender politics in general:

In short, the further away you get from the middle, the less you're likely to agree with the moderates or the other side of the debate. Part of the problem is that both sides in the gender debates tend to be extremists. A lot of men's rights groups are simply reactionary groups that hate feminists. In the same vein, there are feminists that hate men or, at least, have a knee-jerk reaction towards hostlity towards men. Another problem, though, is that if you do try to see both sides and acknowledge both sides have their own issues (and many of those issues are mirror images of something that the other side faces), people like that get called 'misogynist' by feminists and 'mangina' by MRA's.

So, yes, I do think feeling disposable is a legitimate concern of men. I can understand why they feel this way. And from what I've seen of GirlWritesWhat, she has a decent understanding of evolutionary psychology. However, she has a nasty habit of thinking of feminism as some horrible malicious entity and that simply isn't true (at least not most the time).

Read this article and you can understand a lot of what I feel about the issue. I especially like "Ozy's Law."

http://www.alternet.org/story/156194/wha...men%2C_too

[Tiberius]

girlwriteswhat is perhaps the most eloquent speaker I have seen on the issue of egalitarianism and men's rights.

[Violet]

This reminds me of how much I miss Dotard

[TaraJo]

I'm not fond of her myself. She does bring a different perspective to the gender talks, in that the voices of men's rights are far outweighed by the voices of feminists, but falls into the same trap to way too many people on both sides fall into: inability to see both sides.

The wage gap exists, there's no denying that. And there are far more men in congress or as business executives than women. These are areas where women are at a disadvantage and she never really acknowledges them (or if she does, she does so in a dismissive way). And if you try to talk to most feminists about male disposability or how fathers feel alienated from their children or about how men feel like society unfairly sees them as automatically sex offenders (schroedingers rapist literally tells them that they're all "potential rapists."), feminists won't acknowledge those issues, either, unless they do so in a dismissive way or as a way of blaming or shaming men.

And while both sides are fighting over stupid, bullshit and petty differences, both fail to see the big picture. Both sides want the same thing: an end to arbritray gender role bullshit. Yet they've divided themselves into such opposing viewpoints that they're unwilling to work together on it. And that's what I think may be the most frustrating because if they worked together towards a mutual goal, think both sides would accomplish a lot more than they do just bitching back and forth with each other.

[Violet]

The wage gap exists, there's no denying that.

This is largely because of the choices that are made by women (such as: maternity leave, going into nursing instead of engineering). The much touted 'wage gap', is actually quite small on average. Sure, there are outlying cases where you work for a bigot... but it simply isn't true most of the time.

And there are far more men in congress or as business executives than women. These are areas where women are at a disadvantage and she never really acknowledges them (or if she does, she does so in a dismissive way).

Sarah Palin getting added to the McCain bill nearly got him elected. By itself. For no reason other than her being a woman. Michelle Bachmann did well in preliminary polling, for no other reason than her being a woman.

The reason there are more men as congressmen and executives... is again: largely on the choices made by women. I would instead suggest that they are *quite at the advantage* in political and social matters, again... simply because they are women

And if you try to talk to most feminists about male disposability or how fathers feel alienated from their children or about how men feel like society unfairly sees them as automatically sex offenders (schroedingers rapist literally tells them that they're all "potential rapists."), feminists won't acknowledge those issues, either, unless they do so in a dismissive way or as a way of blaming or shaming men.

It's pretty hilarious, or would be, if they didn't have such massive political and social clout.

And while both sides are fighting over stupid, bullshit and petty differences, both fail to see the big picture. Both sides want the same thing: an end to arbritray gender role bullshit. Yet they've divided themselves into such opposing viewpoints that they're unwilling to work together on it. And that's what I think may be the most frustrating because if they worked together towards a mutual goal, think both sides would accomplish a lot more than they do just bitching back and forth with each other.

There are more than two sides... I mean, I for instance would like to keep some of that arbitrary gender-role nonsense Mostly because I am a selfish bitch who loves being treated as a woman

[TaraJo]

This is largely because of the choices that are made by women (such as: maternity leave, going into nursing instead of engineering). The much touted 'wage gap', is actually quite small on average. Sure, there are outlying cases where you work for a bigot... but it simply isn't true most of the time.

...

The reason there are more men as congressmen and executives... is again: largely on the choices made by women. I would instead suggest that they are *quite at the advantage* in political and social matters, again... simply because they are women

It's difficult to get past the hard numbers on this. Almost all the studies done on the sociological factors that lead men to do x and women to do y is done by feminists, so there's going to be some amount of in-group bias and confirmation bias. It's been really difficult to find non-biased sources that will tackle the issues.

And, yes, ultimately we all take personal responsibility for the choices we make, but I'm talking about the influences society has on us that leads us to make certain choices. If you took someone like Einstein and raised him in a society where there isn't good education or where education is looked down on (*cough*TEXAS*cough*) then he probably wouldn't have become the physicist he was known as.

There are more than two sides... I mean, I for instance would like to keep some of that arbitrary gender-role nonsense Mostly because I am a selfish bitch who loves being treated as a woman

True, I don't mind the gender role stuff as long as it isn't mandatory or projected onto others against their will.

[Psykhronic]

I think Feminism and Men's rights people need to chill the fuck out and realize we're all impacted by forced gender roles. And I only speak of the extremists. The Women's Studies department at my old college is changing the field to "Gender, Sexuality, and Culture", much more inclusive title.

[Tiberius]

@TaraJo:

Here is some research conducted by a non-feminist group. Very balanced video in my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

[Violet]

It's difficult to get past the hard numbers on this. Almost all the studies done on the sociological factors that lead men to do x and women to do y is done by feminists, so there's going to be some amount of in-group bias and confirmation bias. It's been really difficult to find non-biased sources that will tackle the issues.

I'm less interested in 'the hard numbers' than I am in the theory. Take our recent troll's "50% of transgendered people commit suicide" statement. It's probably mostly true, but it doesn't matter nearly as much (to me) as the reasons behind the data (bullying, financial ruin, unemployability, social ostracization, dysphoria, etc).

And, yes, ultimately we all take personal responsibility for the choices we make, but I'm talking about the influences society has on us that leads us to make certain choices. If you took someone like Einstein and raised him in a society where there isn't good education or where education is looked down on (*cough*TEXAS*cough*) then he probably wouldn't have become the physicist he was known as.

The world would have been fine without Einstein the physicist, but if he's so smart he probably would have made something of it anyway. Texas ain't so bad My niece wants to move here badly, I can't allow Texas to suck as much as AK