Religion and LGBT people

[catfish]

""Transmission of sexually antagonistic epi-marks between generations is the most plausible evolutionary mechanism of the phenomenon of human homosexuality," "

[Esquilax]

Can you prove that?

The modern western mainstream paradigm of sexuality is modern and western, and serves a political purpose.

Simple logic proves that: if it's a choice, then when did you choose to be straight? If it's a choice, then you would surely have the ability to switch over and see the other side for a second, right? And everyone else would be able to do just that too, so there wouldn't be any argument over whether it was a choice or not, it'd be self evident. If it was a choice, then who in their right mind would choose to be oppressed and discriminated against by bigots?

Is your sexuality that mutable in its attractions? That just makes you bi, it doesn't make you qualified to make sweeping statements about sexuality based on nothing but your own bigotries.

[John V]

Simple logic proves that: if it's a choice, then when did you choose to be straight?

Throughout adolescence and early adulthood. Studies show that 1% of adolescents identify as gay, and that grows to 2.5% in adults. So, 60% of gay adults didn't identify as gay when they were adolescents.
http://www.sf-hrc.org/modules/showdocume...mentid=989
Read further for evidence that many Bs self-identify as either gay or straight because they're discriminated against if they don't, thus falsely reinforcing the born gay or straight paradigm.

[Esquilax]

Throughout adolescence and early adulthood. Studies show that 1% of adolescents identify as gay, and that grows to 2.5% in adults. So, 60% of gay adults didn't identify as gay when they were adolescents.
http://www.sf-hrc.org/modules/showdocume...mentid=989
Read further for evidence that many Bs self-identify as either gay or straight because they're discriminated against if they don't, thus falsely reinforcing the born gay or straight paradigm.

So? I didn't identify as bi in my adolescence, and being that I'm not ignoring my lived experience as a teenager, I'm not surprised that so many adolescents don't. There's this thing that sort of rules the roost as a kid, called peer pressure; like it or not, casual bigotry is a huge thing among younger people. Not so much now, granted, but certainly in the past; even now, the word gay is used as a slur, or in a negative context.

Are you honestly surprised that gay teens would opt to identify as straight, to follow the crowd, to be what they believe society requires of them, until they leave the echo chamber of high school? That doesn't mean the decision was made in that age range, just that they didn't identify with their sexuality until later on; you're misrepresenting the data, I hope not deliberately.

And in reference to bi folk like myself... yeah, they self identify as one or the other for a while; I did. And you mentioned the reason why too; discrimination. Why are you willing to accept that as the answer for bi folk, but not for gay folk? It's the same answer for both, because we live in a society that still prizes heterosexuality over any non-normative orientation.

Now, I could go further and bitch about the raw deal bi folk get and extrapolate from there for gay folks too, but the link you provided does that pretty well. I love that you'd pervert the intention of that study to prove an inherently bigoted point that goes against the spirit of that study, though. Something startlingly classy about that.

[John V]

So?

So, the fact that 60% of gay adults didn't self-identify as gay as adolescents indicates that people are not necessarily born with a fixed sexual identity.

I didn't identify as bi in my adolescence, and being that I'm not ignoring my lived experience as a teenager, I'm not surprised that so many adolescents don't. There's this thing that sort of rules the roost as a kid, called peer pressure; like it or not, casual bigotry is a huge thing among younger people. Not so much now, granted, but certainly in the past; even now, the word gay is used as a slur, or in a negative context.

Are you honestly surprised that gay teens would opt to identify as straight, to follow the crowd, to be what they believe society requires of them, until they leave the echo chamber of high school? That doesn't mean the decision was made in that age range, just that they didn't identify with their sexuality until later on; you're misrepresenting the data, I hope not deliberately.

Not accepting your speculative explanation without support is not misrepresenting the data.

The effect of peer pressure is minimized in a confidential survey. Also, that effect couldn't explain all the change, as the numbers just aren't there. Hetero drops .8% from adolescence to adulthood, while G/L increases 1.5%.

Also note some stats given in the text. While 3% of adults self-identify as bisexual, triple that amount report attraction to both sexes. That's more than the G/L, B and other categories combined.

Also consider other times and cultures. For instance, ancient greeks didn't make gender the dividing line, they differentiated by the pentrative and receptive roles. It was fine for an adult male to take the penetrative role with another man, fine for an adolescent male to take the receptive role, but considered wrong for an adult male to take the receptive role. Where the heck is born gay in that paradigm?

[Ryantology]

So, the fact that 60% of gay adults didn't self-identify as gay as adolescents indicates that people are not necessarily born with a fixed sexual identity.

Or, it indicates that not everyone fully realizes their sexual identity as early as adolescence. It also indicates that the significant prejudice against non-traditional sexuality, and in some cases the legitimate danger of identifying as such, can make it much more difficult for a person to admit their own sexuality. To both, I would cite my own experience. I had bisexual urges as early as 13, but I had to live as many years again before I was able to admit it to myself, much less anybody else--even in confidence. I was raised by a homophobe, and I was myself a homophobe into my 20s. I chose to stop being homophobic, but I did not choose to be bisexual, and I find it insulting when people insist that it is a choice. To that, I'll repeat Esquilax's question: When did you choose to be straight?

[Esquilax]

So, the fact that 60% of gay adults didn't self-identify as gay as adolescents indicates that people are not necessarily born with a fixed sexual identity.

No, it means that they didn't self identify as gay as adolescents. I've already told you why that might be.

Not accepting your speculative explanation without support is not misrepresenting the data.

No, but your misrepresenting the data is. You can't make any conclusions about genetics based on data that's cultivated via self reporting. You can only make subjective, after the fact conclusions, and I've already provided at least a few reasons why your singular answer is faulty, if not outright wrong. You can be genetically predisposed to many things that only come to light later in life, after all.

All you can say with any certainty is that self identification with homosexuality is more common later in life, conveniently after one's self concept and sexual identity becomes more formed and relaxed. You ignore sociological variables at your peril, John.

The effect of peer pressure is minimized in a confidential survey.

Only if the data was representing something where peer pressure could reasonably be expected to still have an effect. Given that all of the results here are culled from adults, you're just flat out wrong with this one: the peer pressure I'm talking about would have happened in the past, when those reporting were in their adolescence, after all. Why would peer pressure matter if they self identify as gay now?

Also, that effect couldn't explain all the change, as the numbers just aren't there. Hetero drops .8% from adolescence to adulthood, while G/L increases 1.5%.

There's no stigma on heterosexuality. There is on homosexuality. This is the key difference; self identifying as gay carries with it a threat of discrimination, bigotry and possible parental abandonment that isn't there for heteros. Of course homosexual identification would increase more than heterosexual identification would drop off; that just indicates that those who were closeted out of fear stopped having a reason to be afraid once they left high school and were able to pick their own environment. This isn't hard, dude.

Also note some stats given in the text. While 3% of adults self-identify as bisexual, triple that amount report attraction to both sexes. That's more than the G/L, B and other categories combined.

Yep, okay. And this proves what, exactly? Think of sexuality as a continuum: you can have small amounts of attraction to your own gender, enough to self report anonymously that it's there, without having to identify as bisexual. All this shows is that attraction to both sexes in amounts significant enough to be considered bi (or self awareness/willingness to be labelled as such) is less common than attraction to both sexes at all.

Also consider other times and cultures. For instance, ancient greeks didn't make gender the dividing line, they differentiated by the pentrative and receptive roles. It was fine for an adult male to take the penetrative role with another man, fine for an adolescent male to take the receptive role, but considered wrong for an adult male to take the receptive role. Where the heck is born gay in that paradigm?

The people who indulged in homosexual behavior? What do cultural niceties have to do with genetics? That's looking at the problem ass backwards. Social constructs spring up regardless of genetics, not in response to a lack of genetic predisposition. I really have no idea what you're trying to prove with this point.

---

Or, it indicates that not everyone fully realizes their sexual identity as early as adolescence. It also indicates that the significant prejudice against non-traditional sexuality, and in some cases the legitimate danger of identifying as such, can make it much more difficult for a person to admit their own sexuality. To both, I would cite my own experience. I had bisexual urges as early as 13, but I had to live as many years again before I was able to admit it to myself, much less anybody else--even in confidence. I was raised by a homophobe, and I was myself a homophobe into my 20s. I chose to stop being homophobic, but I did not choose to be bisexual, and I find it insulting when people insist that it is a choice. To that, I'll repeat Esquilax's question: When did you choose to be straight?

Yeah, pretty much this. Although of course, you managed to say it with more brevity.

Thank you, it's nice to see someone else with the same kinds of experiences in here.

[Question Mark]

Studies show that children specifically high school teenagers, are amongst the most numerously bigoted, bullying hypocrits that humanity can produce. In high school it's be a bully, agree with the bully, or be bullied, and even when most have grown out of that juvenile state of mind, are you honestly of the opinion that most people are going to want to publically identify as something that will garner nothing but prejudice, ridicule, and possibly violence? When I was in high school, there was a boy who lived nearby who liked to dance. He ended up in hospital with broken shins and ankles after a bunch of other kids ganged on him. I shudder to think what they would have done if the guy had been gay, or if anyone had found out my sexuality.

[John V]

So, the fact that 60% of gay adults didn't self-identify as gay as adolescents indicates that people are not necessarily born with a fixed sexual identity.

Or, it indicates that not everyone fully realizes their sexual identity as early as adolescence. It also indicates that the significant prejudice against non-traditional sexuality, and in some cases the legitimate danger of identifying as such, can make it much more difficult for a person to admit their own sexuality. To both, I would cite my own experience. I had bisexual urges as early as 13, but I had to live as many years again before I was able to admit it to myself, much less anybody else--even in confidence. I was raised by a homophobe, and I was myself a homophobe into my 20s. I chose to stop being homophobic, but I did not choose to be bisexual, and I find it insulting when people insist that it is a choice. To that, I'll repeat Esquilax's question: When did you choose to be straight?

I'll repeat my answer: during adolescence and early adulthood. Really, though, I think a bi-continuum paradigm is a more accurate reflection of human sexuality than the gay/bi/straight paradigm.

BTW, why do you say you're bisexual? Read the study - plenty of people with attraction to both sexes or having sex with both sexes self-identify as gay or straight.

---

You can't make any conclusions about genetics based on data that's cultivated via self reporting. You can only make subjective, after the fact conclusions.

What do you base the position that people are born gay on, if not their self-reports?

[Esquilax]

What do you base the position that people are born gay on, if not their self-reports?

Well, the science. I believe a link was left a few pages back. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2...120612.php

There's another one, maybe it's the same one.

But there's also a logical issue that you don't seem to be getting: if it's a choice, then you should be able to change it, right? Like, right now? But you and I both know that's not how people work.

And if it's not that kind of choice, then it's not a sin, is it? If it's something you can choose at one point (oddly you fail to specify the means by which this choice is made, possibly because no such methods appear in the study you're misrepresenting to reach your conclusion) but not later, then is it a sin at one point, but it stops being so later on? Besides, if it's a choice like you're angling, a conscious one that can be considered sinful, then surely you remember making it, right? You remember going "I am straight now." Because I sure as fuck can't remember making that choice, can anyone else?

And if you're not trying to push us towards "gay is a choice and therefore a sin," then why are you arguing at all? This is just insulting for no reason: you know as well as I do that we as humans don't make conscious decisions as to our orientations.