Religion and LGBT people

[BeeDeePee]

1.Why do you Hate LGBT people so much?
2.Would you still hate them if your book said nothing about it?
I want honest answer and no apologetics, we can smell the bullshit.

I don't hate them, although I consider homosexual acts as sinful. Actually, a very close friend of mine is bisexual, and I didn't change my opinion about him after he had told me.

[Ryantology]

I'll repeat my answer: during adolescence and early adulthood. Really, though, I think a bi-continuum paradigm is a more accurate reflection of human sexuality than the gay/bi/straight paradigm.

I wonder, did you also make conscious choices about what features of a person attract you? Did you decide, one day, that you like big boobs? Did you see a blonde and go "I have decided that I do not find blonde hair attractive?".

Nobody makes choices in a vacuum, so tell me: when you made your choice to like girls, what lay behind that choice? Did you carefully consider other options before you settled with heterosexuality? Is that choice immutable, or might you one day decide to be attracted to men as well?

BTW, why do you say you're bisexual? Read the study - plenty of people with attraction to both sexes or having sex with both sexes self-identify as gay or straight.

I choose the label by which I identify myself because I feel it describes me better than gay or straight, but this does not mean I choose to whom I am attracted. The very idea that a person can 'choose' to be attracted to anything strikes me as magnificently absurd.

What do you base the position that people are born gay on, if not their self-reports?

There is vastly more incentive to pretend to be straight than to pretend not to be.

[John V]

Well, the science. I believe a link was left a few pages back. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2...120612.php

There's another one, maybe it's the same one.

Here's a longer write-up on that article which notes that it's just a hypothesis at this point:
By feminization of males and masculinization of females, the researchers are referring to “gonad-trait discordance,” which indicates that a person’s genitals and sexual preference aren’t in line with what is generally considered “normal.” The authors also cite two other androgen-influenced traits (cryptorchidism and hypospadias) that may be related to sex-specific epi-marks. However, “may” is the key word, since none of these hypotheses have been tested with real data.

In the end, that’s where the paper leaves us: with an untested hypothesis that appears to fit the statistical frequencies and inheritance patterns of homosexuality. The researchers use a mathematical formula to illustrate that this type of epigenetic inheritance could occur, but the paper is purely theoretical rather than data-driven, and it refers to remarkably few human studies.

But there's also a logical issue that you don't seem to be getting: if it's a choice, then you should be able to change it, right? Like, right now? But you and I both know that's not how people work.

Here's a longitudinal study of women over ten years in which 2/3 of them changed their self-identity, and 1/3 changed it two or more times.

[Question Mark]

Well, the science. I believe a link was left a few pages back. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2...120612.php

There's another one, maybe it's the same one.

Here's a longer write-up on that article which notes that it's just a hypothesis at this point:
By feminization of males and masculinization of females, the researchers are referring to “gonad-trait discordance,” which indicates that a person’s genitals and sexual preference aren’t in line with what is generally considered “normal.” The authors also cite two other androgen-influenced traits (cryptorchidism and hypospadias) that may be related to sex-specific epi-marks. However, “may” is the key word, since none of these hypotheses have been tested with real data.

In the end, that’s where the paper leaves us: with an untested hypothesis that appears to fit the statistical frequencies and inheritance patterns of homosexuality. The researchers use a mathematical formula to illustrate that this type of epigenetic inheritance could occur, but the paper is purely theoretical rather than data-driven, and it refers to remarkably few human studies.

But there's also a logical issue that you don't seem to be getting: if it's a choice, then you should be able to change it, right? Like, right now? But you and I both know that's not how people work.

Here's a longitudinal study of women over ten years in which 2/3 of them changed their self-identity, and 1/3 changed it two or more times.

Can you change your orientation at will?

[John V]

Can you change your orientation at will?

Can you define "at will"?

[Esquilax]

Can you change your orientation at will?

That's the million dollar question, John. Can you make a conscious decision to alter your sexual orientation? If so, when did you decide to be straight? Did you weigh up your options? Ever gotten curious about the other side? Ever switched orientations for a second, just to see what it's like?

Seriously, if you think it's a choice, when did you make yours, and what was the thought process like? I'm genuinely curious here, since it's news to me that other people got to choose, and you seem to be pretty special, since you've got three people here intimating that they never had a choice either. It must be your superpower!

But let's go deeper: I'm bi. I like both sexes so if anyone here can be accused of having a choice, it's me. But I still don't: though I can be attracted to both sexes, generally speaking my tastes lean more towards women, and I can't change that. I even have days where I just want one over the other, and I can't alter those either. It's not a choice, and you know it. Pointing to instances of sexual confusion is not the same thing.

But hey, that's not all! Let's take a look at your premise that sexuality is something that's determined in adolescence, shall we? Now, if it's a conscious choice then you'll be able to illuminate us as to the nature of yours, as we already discussed. If it isn't, how could it possibly be a choice at all? What kind of choice is mutable only for a certain period of time, and then locked in from there on out? And in that case, does that make homosexuality sinful during those formative years when it is a choice, but not a sin afterwards when it's locked in?

Or are you, perhaps prudently, implying that rather than being a conscious choice- a position that you know is untenable and that's why you refuse to answer the question we're all posing to you- that sexuality is determined by developmental factors in adolescence? In that case, isn't it also largely beyond individual control? How is that a choice? How could that possibly be sinful?

We've really got you every which way, John. Now, please do tell: when did you choose to be straight? When did you make this momentous and binding selection as to your sexuality, and have you ever succumbed to curiosity about the other side?

Further, do you ever get concerned when you hear literally everyone else ever expressing that they didn't have a choice? Do you get lonely, being the only sexual polymorph?

[Question Mark]

You've avoided this question multiple times throughout the thread.

You're of the opinion, or at least have given us to believe that you're of the opinion, that being gay, bi, or any of the other "deviant" sexual orientations is a choice. If this is so, then can you choose to be gay, or bi like I and others on this thread are? Can you do that?

[Dee Dee Ramone]

Question mark indeed!

[John V]

Yes, research shows that it's possible to consciously change, though difficult: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1...011.607052

[Question Mark]

All that description indicated was that some people can possibly change their sexual identity. That's hardly "choosing" to be straight or gay. That's fundamentally altering the nature of the individual, and I've yet to see any widespread notion that sexuality can be altered. This is just one book.

Also, and most importantly, can -YOU- choose to be a different orientation? Could you in some fashion will yourself into changing your orientation?