God is the great spirit friend

[festive1]

Yeah, that's what I normally do as well. But that particular statement… sticks in my craw, so to speak.

[Faith No More]

On the subject of God teaching through suffering, we are talking about an omnipotent God, right? Could this omnipotent God not have created a way to impart the exact same knowledge that we learn through suffering without the actual suffering? Why is the pain necessary?

When I hear people talk about suffering having a higher purpose, I simply hear a human grasping at straws to make sense of an indifferent universe. Humans have the ability to become stronger from adversity, but I see absolutely no reason to assume that the strength gained from the adversity is the reason for the adversity. Bad shit happens, and we learn from it. Just because we learn from it, however, does not mean that bad shit had a purpose. Learning from adversity is a coping mechanism, not the purpose for the adversity.

[Mystic]

Faith no more, well overcoming adversity being praiseworthy, patience and resilience being praiseworthy, helping others who are suffering being praiseworthy, certainly won't prove it's the purpose, but it seems to prove it would be a worthy purpose if you believe the praise outweighs the suffering, and it specially helps if you consider the possibility of everlasting peace. I agree learning is not the purpose however, because as you said, we could be given this knowledge through other means.

[Faith No More]

The thing that has helped me the most through difficult times is just knowing that I can hold on to God when I go to sleep and God holds me and comforts me. Sometimes it seems like the rest of the world is so foolish and so shallow, but God is always a close friend to me, has never been far away from me, though God has put me through quite a bit.

Sometimes you accidentally give great insight into your motivations for believing in god. It's quite clear from statements such as this that God is simply an invisible security blanket that you refuse to relinquish, and in order to convince yourself that this god is absolutely real you have convinced yourself that others have ulterior motives for not believing in it.

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Faith no more, well overcoming adversity being praiseworthy, patience and resilience being praiseworthy, helping others who are suffering being praiseworthy, certainly won't prove it's the purpose, but it seems to prove it would be a worthy purpose if you believe the praise outweighs the suffering, and it specially helps if you consider the possibility of everlasting peace. I agree learning is not the purpose however, because as you said, we could be given this knowledge through other means.

I'm still not entirely certain I understand what you mean by "praiseworthy," but could you give an example of the praise outweighing the suffering?

And I do believe in everlasting peace, just not in the way I believe your referring to.

[Mystic]

I'm still not entirely certain I understand what you mean by "praiseworthy," but could you give an example of the praise outweighing the suffering?

Sure. I will give an example of a close family member. He has been tortured in Jail, kicked out of his country, all for being political active. He is political active to get the people to remove a dictatorship. He suffers a lot as a result. He is currently away from his family.

I believe his resilience and risking suffering and his sacrifice, outweighs the suffering he went and is going through.

This is just an example. But what I really meant is not on a individual to individual basis. It has more to do with over all in the system, the opportunity of praise outweighs the over all suffering.

What I mean by praiseworthy, is that you are worthy of praise, not that you are praised by people.

[festive1]

But being worthy of praise is entirely subjective. I'm sure the ruling party would find this man's actions categorically unworthy of praise, even if he is on the moral high ground.
In scenarios like this, always remember, people on the wrong side of history do not see themselves as the "bad guy." Even Hitler thought he was doing what was right and just for his people, however misguided and terrible his actions were. I'm sure, if we could ask him, he thought his actions were worthy of praise.

[Mystic]

But being worthy of praise is entirely subjective.

That's another subject. It seems all evidence points to praise being solely subjective (specially if we accept evolution naturalism wise), but it's something most humans cannot and will not ever come to believe in, and this seems to include me.

If there is no objective praise, no objective value, no objective worth, then certainly the Creator if there is one, is one I would highly dislike to say the least.

[Faith No More]

Sure. I will give an example of a close family member. He has been tortured in Jail, kicked out of his country, all for being political active. He is political active to get the people to remove a dictatorship. He suffers a lot as a result. He is currently away from his family.

I believe his resilience and risking suffering and his sacrifice, outweighs the suffering he went and is going through.

This is just an example. But what I really meant is not on a individual to individual basis. It has more to do with over all in the system, the opportunity of praise outweighs the over all suffering.

What I mean by praiseworthy, is that you are worthy of praise, not that you are praised by people.

Would his actions not have been just as praiseworthy if he had not suffered as a result?

As for the opportunity for praise outweighing the overall suffering, how does that justify the suffering of the individual? In other words, to use your family member as an example, how would the praise he earned justify a child being sexually abused?

[thesummerqueen]

I think he's trying to say that the "good" sort of suffering, like his family member, in the world outweighs the 'bad' sort of suffering, like child abuse.

Which I still don't understand how one justifies the existence of another. Again, his family member chose his suffering. That was consensual. Children don't.

[Mystic]

Would his actions not have been just as praiseworthy if he had not suffered as a result?

Well if there was no risk of suffering, I would say it would not be as praiseworthy. A fireman takes a risk everyday, and that itself is praiseworthy, because there is risk. Courage is not possible without risk.

Resilience also would not have been there, if everything was all perfect and rosy.

As for the opportunity for praise outweighing the overall suffering, how does that justify the suffering of the individual? In other words, to use your family member as an example, how would the praise he earned justify a child being sexually abused?

Well free-will is needed in the system to function the way it is. People have to be able to decide between good and evil. In the case of children, it maybe that whatever potential praise they can go through regarding that doesn't justify what they go through regarding that, but it's possible the over all goal of the system, to have opportunity of praise over all, outweighs over all suffering.

In this case, the child suffering possibly are a by product of the system. It maybe not the intended goal, but a sacrifice of the system, for the overall intended goal.