Is Easter based on a pagan tradition?

[A_Nony_Mouse]

Jewish people is essentially a 19th c. Zionist invention.

I think you just flushed any point of credibility that you migh have had down the toilet. I understand your dilemma, based on your mission, to create a fantasy to justify your feelings, your anger, but one needs to be rational when speaking of recorded history. Zionism is not Judaism, and you are confusing the two.

You need to start using a different browser. You missed the part where I cited the book by a JEWISH, ISRAELI, PROFESSOR of HISTORY at Tel Aviv University.

The Invention of the Jewish People [Paperback] Shlomo Sand (Author), Yael Lotan (Translator) http://www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewish-P...ish+people

If there is an issue credibility you need to start with him. All you can get me on is gullibility for believing a jewish, israeli professor of history.

However in his follow up book

The Invention of the Land of Israel: From Holy Land to Homeland [Hardcover] Shlomo Sand (Author), Geremy Forman (Translator)

he makes a very strong case that zionism has replaced Judaism as it is the only central feature that unites almost all people who claim to be Jews, religious and atheist alike.

But if you can find ANY mention of a "jewish people" independent of religion prior to the 1800s you should first communicate it to the professor before you post it here.

And please define people in such manner it is possible to join and unjoin solely by religious ceremony. The professor does discuss that in the Ashkenazi who are Jews only by religious conversion unrelated to ancestral origin in Palestine.

A Jewish people, or race, being only thought of in the 19th century?

Let's just go back one more century. Queen Maria Theresa of Austria of the 18th century expelled the Jewish race from her country, saying

"I know of no greater plague than this race, which on account of its deceit, usury and avarice is driving my subjects into beggary.”

I could keep going back in time. But one should be enough. I know you hate Zionists, but that should not get in the way of writing accurately.

Please keep going back the the idea of race was thoroughly discredited as a consequence of WWII. It cannot be replaced by "people" to the same effect. I suggest you catch up with the times or at least the latter half of the 20th c.

As for using the queen as an authority in this matter you will need to demonstrate from the actual expulsion order that it included all who had converted to Christianity or whose ancestors had converted to Christianity. If you cannot show that then HER term race and religion are interchangeable and have the same meaning in practice. Care to do the research?

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I don't have your forebearance,EG.

Apparently, Ferdinand and Isabella didn't know who they were expelling in the Alhambra Decree?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree#Decree

The Alhambra Decree (also known as the Edict of Expulsion) was an edict issued on 31 March 1492 by the joint Catholic Monarchs of Spain (Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon) ordering the expulsion of Jews from the Kingdoms of Castile and Aragon (not from the Kingdom of Navarre) and its territories and possessions by 31 July of that year.[1]

Most obviously there was no mention of race so what is the point of the citation from the high school lever wikipedia? That is contains such misleading material is why it is only high school level.

The more complete story is the Jews and Muslims who converted to Christianity were permitted to stay. Thus it was purely religion that determined who could stay or had to go.

Next the Inquisition blamed for persecuting Jews was to deal with FALSE conversions to Christianity, those who still practiced Islam and Judaism.

That is no secret. It is never wise to trust wikipedia whose authors are anonymous, of unknown character and of unknown motivation. Please. The same rules that apply to gospel authenticity apply to wikipedia as well on top of the fact it is for an audience below voting age.

[Minimalist]

Bullshit, Mouse.

Wiki gives it sources...the footnote is live and provides a translation of the decree....my Spanish is not good enough to wade through it in the original.

There were Jews in Spain in 1492. Ferdy and Izzy gave them a choice. All your horseshit simply cannot change that.

(4) Therefore, we, with the counsel and advice of prelates, great noblemen of our kingdoms, and other persons of learning and wisdom of our Council, having taken deliberation about this matter, resolve to order the said Jews and Jewesses of our kingdoms to depart and never to return or come back to them or to any of them. And concerning this we command this our charter to be given, by which we order all Jews and Jewesses of whatever age they may be, who live, reside, and exist in our said kingdoms and lordships, as much those who are natives as those who are not, who by whatever manner or whatever cause have come to live and reside therein, that by the end of the month of July next of the present year, they depart from all of these our said realms and lordships, along with their sons and daughters, menservants and maidservants, Jewish familiars, those who are great as well as the lesser folk, of whatever age they may be, and they shall not dare to return to those places, nor to reside in them, nor to live in any part of them, neither temporarily on the way to somewhere else nor in any other manner, under pain that if they do not perform and comply with this command and should be found in our said kingdom and lordships and should in any manner live in them, they incur the penalty of death and the confiscation of all their possessions by our Chamber of Finance, incurring these penalties by the act itself, without further trial, sentence, or declaration. And we command and forbid that any person or persons of the said kingdoms, of whatever estate, condition, or dignity that they may be, shall dare to receive, protect, defend, nor hold publicly or secretly any Jew or Jewess beyond the date of the end of July and from henceforth forever, in their lands, houses, or in other parts of any of our said kingdoms and lordships, under pain of losing all their possessions, vassals, fortified places, and other inheritances, and beyond this of losing whatever financial grants they hold from us by our Chamber of Finance.

[pocaracas]

I think you're talking about two different types of "jews".
Min speaks of jews as the religious group that follows the Torah, or whatever their book is called.
Mouse speaks about the "jew society" which goes beyond the religious group, to encompass a social group made up of people related to those who are in the religious group.... something like that, right?

[thesummerqueen]

I hope so. Excuse me for using a possessive term for the group I was born into, regardless of whether I left it.

If Passover began as a spring festival, it bears fuck all resemblance to anything having to do with celebrating the spring, at this point. The Seder does not make any passing mention of such, and the entire dinner and ceremony are wrapped up on the Exodus story. Unless my family missed it, there are no extraneous things like egg hunts and chocolate in which to make a nod at pagan ceremonies. Again, I asked the historian on this forum whom I trust to correct me if he knew something different.

[KichigaiNeko]

It is just a spring festival.... from time immemorial and ergo a "Pagan" festival as far as I understand it.

Yes the rising of our star Sol on or about the 22 March each year indicated the "birth" or "death" (depending on which hemisphere you are in) of the agricultural year. As hominids who just LOVE stories, many have been made to cover this time of year for many reasons.

Our historians can fill you in on the details, but I am to understand that "Easter" and "Ishtar" are the same thing. A celebration of "new life" as represented by the eggs (of "promise" and the rabbit of "reproduction")




Yeah poetic I know but this is what people remember and want in their myths. Which is why they are invwented.

[Minimalist]

Mouse speaks about the "jew society"

There was a "jew society" ( I'm guessing this is what he means and hoping for the best from him on this one ) in Judaea until 135 and the bar Kochba revolt. There was a significant Jewish enclaves in Alexandria but the culture of the place was decidedly Greco-Roman. Throughout all of this there remained a large Jewish community in Babylon.

Jews evicted from Judaea by Hadrian settled in these places and Galilee ( we begin to see synagogues in the archaeological record shortly after this time) as Judaism evolved from a cult based on temple sacrifice to reading their silly book and incessant praying to the rather worthless god who had so singularly failed to protect them. One wonders why they bothered?

But it is a silly argument to say that individual groups do not maintain some sense of shared history. We have the example of the gypsies in Europe and even today, the "Palestinians" are a stateless people.... for better or worse.

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I might add that the only reason was succeeding was that the Byzantines and Persians had just called it a draw after a long series of expensive wars where they lost way too many of their combat age men to effectively resist.

True, Mouse, but you also have to factor in this observation....

nervos belli, pecuniam infinitam.

--Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Endless money forms the sinews of war."

In addition to the bloodshed they had bankrupted themselves and devastated the area they were fighting over. Easy pickings, indeed!

[A_Nony_Mouse]

Bullshit, Mouse.

Wiki gives it sources...the footnote is live and provides a translation of the decree....my Spanish is not good enough to wade through it in the original.

There were Jews in Spain in 1492. Ferdy and Izzy gave them a choice. All your horseshit simply cannot change that.

(4) Therefore, we, with the counsel and advice of prelates, great noblemen of our kingdoms, and other persons of learning and wisdom of our Council, having taken deliberation about this matter, resolve to order the said Jews and Jewesses of our kingdoms to depart and never to return or come back to them or to any of them. And concerning this we command this our charter to be given, by which we order all Jews and Jewesses of whatever age they may be, who live, reside, and exist in our said kingdoms and lordships, as much those who are natives as those who are not, who by whatever manner or whatever cause have come to live and reside therein, that by the end of the month of July next of the present year, they depart from all of these our said realms and lordships, along with their sons and daughters, menservants and maidservants, Jewish familiars, those who are great as well as the lesser folk, of whatever age they may be, and they shall not dare to return to those places, nor to reside in them, nor to live in any part of them, neither temporarily on the way to somewhere else nor in any other manner, under pain that if they do not perform and comply with this command and should be found in our said kingdom and lordships and should in any manner live in them, they incur the penalty of death and the confiscation of all their possessions by our Chamber of Finance, incurring these penalties by the act itself, without further trial, sentence, or declaration. And we command and forbid that any person or persons of the said kingdoms, of whatever estate, condition, or dignity that they may be, shall dare to receive, protect, defend, nor hold publicly or secretly any Jew or Jewess beyond the date of the end of July and from henceforth forever, in their lands, houses, or in other parts of any of our said kingdoms and lordships, under pain of losing all their possessions, vassals, fortified places, and other inheritances, and beyond this of losing whatever financial grants they hold from us by our Chamber of Finance.

Again it is extremely dumb to cite wikipedia for anything. Even with their selected sources the cliques that have taken over certain topics use only the ones that agree with their position.

However in this case a baptized person, no matter what they were before, pagan, Jew or Muslim, becomes a Christian and is no longer what they were before.

IF you do research it you will find another detail of the story. Several thousand were shipped to Lisbon for transport back to North Africa. While awaiting transport the king Portugal ordered forced conversion, i.e. forced baptism. People in those days took it so seriously that the ex-Jews, who lost the free transportation and had to remain as subjects of the Portuguese king, petitioned the Pope to reverse the baptism and let them be Jews again. The pope refused citing the doctrine of baptism being irreversible although the wording was much more "papal" in words and style.

This is not hard to find either. Spain forced no conversions, it was Portugal. Beyond that I do not see "race" in that citation nor the least indication Jew meant other than one who practiced Judaism.

---

I think you're talking about two different types of "jews".
Min speaks of jews as the religious group that follows the Torah, or whatever their book is called.
Mouse speaks about the "jew society" which goes beyond the religious group, to encompass a social group made up of people related to those who are in the religious group.... something like that, right?

Go back to the citation. The idea of a person being a "Jew" independent of religion is a late 19th c. invention. It is also a purely political invention of Zionism. As a political invention it is without a functional definition. It is nothing more than mere assertion. And those who refuse to go along with the nonsense hate Jews, a style of attack going back to Josephus. And it was stupid when he wrote it.

There is no "Jew society" that is anything other than religion. Anyone who wishes to tell me any characteristics held in common other than religion by Jews from New York, Iran, Morocco, India, Russia and Israel (among others) have in common is free to enlighten me.

I have to ask if anyone really thinks Moroccan Jews do Russian circle dances, eat German potato pancakes and sing Hava Negilah (sp?) to the tune of Irving Berlin. Moroccan Jews are not Ashkenazi Jews nor are they Iranian Jews nor any other ethnicity. There is nothing uniting these different ethnicities other than religion, period.

The idea of an atheist Christian and an atheist Jew and an atheist Muslim are equally moronic oxen.

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I hope so. Excuse me for using a possessive term for the group I was born into, regardless of whether I left it.

I raised the point because you said "my people" rather than a reference to birth religion. Again I gave an impeccable source, a jewish, Israeli professor of history at TAU. And I happen to not only agree with him, I was making the same points for the same reasons before he published. It is nothing new. It is simply noting Zionist propaganda is illogical and dealing only with that is supported by the evidence.

If Passover began as a spring festival, it bears fuck all resemblance to anything having to do with celebrating the spring, at this point.

And Christmas has no particular relation to celebrating the rebirth of the sun or other Sol Invictus cult practices. That does not negate the connection.

The Seder does not make any passing mention of such, and the entire dinner and ceremony are wrapped up on the Exodus story. Unless my family missed it, there are no extraneous things like egg hunts and chocolate in which to make a nod at pagan ceremonies. Again, I asked the historian on this forum whom I trust to correct me if he knew something different.

As to the Seder no mention of the Sun modern Christian Christmas either.

But as we KNOW the Exodus story is myth it cannot have any connection to any real traditional festival.

The question is if the festival existed before the myth was invented or if a pre-existing myth was adopted and adapted to the myth.

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Mouse speaks about the "jew society"

There was a "jew society" ( I'm guessing this is what he means and hoping for the best from him on this one )

The best is dealing only with the physical evidence and rejecting religious and political propaganda.

in Judaea until 135 and the bar Kochba revolt. There was a significant Jewish enclaves in Alexandria but the culture of the place was decidedly Greco-Roman. Throughout all of this there remained a large Jewish community in Babylon.

As per Josephus Judean and Jew are interchangeable terms having the same meaning. And we know, Jew did not mean Galilean, Samaritan or Idumaean even though popular history claims they and others in Palestine were all practitioners of the Judean Yahweh cult. We also Yahweh is the Egyptian Amun by common characteristics and that the decorative motif of Jerusalem was Egyptian prior to the Hadrian urban renewal.

As to Babylon we lack physical evidence it existed prior to the Bar Kochba revolt unless something new has appeared recently.

All the facts which can and have been established have consequences for everything else. They almost always negate popular religious beliefs and traditions, Christian, Muslim and Jewish alike with an equally sharp three-edged sword.

Jews evicted from Judaea by Hadrian settled in these places and Galilee ( we begin to see synagogues in the archaeological record shortly after this time) as Judaism evolved from a cult based on temple sacrifice to reading their silly book and incessant praying to the rather worthless god who had so singularly failed to protect them. One wonders why they bothered?

It is also very well known that Judeans were not evicted from Judea but only from Jerusalem. There was no "resettling" and no large number of people needing to find a place to live outside the city in the first place.

But it is a silly argument to say that individual groups do not maintain some sense of shared history. We have the example of the gypsies in Europe and even today, the "Palestinians" are a stateless people.... for better or worse.

As essentially all "jews" outside of the concentrations in Judea and Alexandria and possible Babylon were converts to the religion it is also obvious that the myth of there being a common history and the myth of their being a common ancestry are quite easily adopted and quickly fervently believed. Again, see the professor's material. That they are so fervently believed by today's Ashkenazi/Zionist cult as opposed to the Khazar conversion it a very obvious example.

[Cato]

However in this case a baptized person, no matter what they were before, pagan, Jew or Muslim, becomes a Christian and is no longer what they were before.

Louse,

What a very stupid thing to say.

Imagine me shoving a huge dildo in your mouth, strapping you in a wheelchair, and pushing you between pews to a man in a funny hat that says a few words and sprinkles water on your head.......poof, you're a Christian. Doesn't matter what you were before, you've been baptized. This is your argument, isn't it? You've been baptized. Be damned what you think or want, the deed is done. Despite what you were before, you are now a Christian because of the ritual of baptism.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

However in this case a baptized person, no matter what they were before, pagan, Jew or Muslim, becomes a Christian and is no longer what they were before.

Louse,

What a very stupid thing to say.

Imagine me shoving a huge dildo in your mouth, strapping you in a wheelchair, and pushing you between pews to a man in a funny hat that says a few words and sprinkles water on your head.......poof, you're a Christian. Doesn't matter what you were before, you've been baptized. This is your argument, isn't it? You've been baptized. Be damned what you think or want, the deed is done. Despite what you were before, you are now a Christian because of the ritual of baptism.

Imagine you not being so crudely vulgar and exercising common civility in this and any future exchange.

My argument is in the meanings of the words when used in the context of the time they were used.

In the good old days pouring water over a forehead made one a Christian just as much as taking an induction oath make one a soldier today. Those were the rules, period. One cannot apply modern meanings and contexts to other times and places.

I remind you of the petition of the ex-Jews to the pope. If they did not share the same idea why the petition?

Just to blow your mind the first Inquisition in Spain was a century before the famous one. It used the same methods and penalties. It was used by the rabbinical Jews to root out and eliminate the Karaite Jews. Of course Israel Shahak may have made it up.

[pocaracas]

Aye, jews were forcibly converted in Portugal...
And they invented a special kind of sausage that made it look like they were eating pork, when, in fact, the sausage was made of bird (chicken/turkey) and/or rabbit meat, it's called alheira and is very good grilled... hmmmm...
Anyway, those people were called the new christians and eventually were integrated into standard christians. Portuguese jews are now very uncommon.