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Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
#1
Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
I assume that most are familiar with Revelation 13:3 which reads:

3 “And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.”

When efforts are made to identify the "Beast" this "deadly wound" usually causes significant difficulty. But what if there was a historical figure from the 1st Century that supposedly received such a wound and survived? Shouldn't there be at least some suspicion that the "deadly wound" of Revelation was alluding to such a person? After all, the survival of an apparently mortal wound is not a very common event.

The person whom I am referring to is the Jewish historian Josephus who tells of his wounding in Wars of the Jews, Book 5, Chapter 13, paragraph 3 (13:3?):

3. “In the mean time, Josephus, as he was going round the city, had his head wounded by a stone that was thrown at him; upon which he fell down as giddy. Upon which fall of his the Jews made a sally, and he had been hurried away into the city, if Caesar had not sent men to protect him immediately; and as these men were fighting, Josephus was taken up, though he heard little of what was done. So the seditious supposed they had now slain that man whom they were the most desirous of killing, and made there upon a great noise, in way of rejoicing. This accident was told in the city, and the multitude that remained became very disconsolate at the news, as being persuaded that he was really dead, on whose account alone they could venture to desert to the Romans. But when Josephus's mother heard in prison that her son was dead, she said to those that watched about her, That she had always been of opinion, since the siege of Jotapata, [that he would be slain,] and she should never enjoy him alive any more. She also made great lamentation privately to the maid-servants that were about her, and said, That this was all the advantage she had of bringing so extraordinary a person as this son into the world; that she should not be able even to bury that son of hers, by whom she expected to have been buried herself. However, this false report did not put his mother to pain, nor afford merriment to the robbers, long; for Josephus soon recovered of his wound, and came out, and cried out aloud, That it would not be long ere they should be punished for this wound they had given him. He also made a fresh exhortation to the people to come out upon the security that would be given them. This sight of Josephus encouraged the people greatly, and brought a great consternation upon the seditious.”
Now, what about "666"? First of all, I believe that the literal hint in Revelation 13:18 that suggests that gematria is employed is in fact a deliberate red herring. When this facade is dismissed, then another explanation nicely fits into the context suggested by the above parallel.

First of all, when Josephus describes the movement of General Vespasian and his son Titus into Judea he writes:

2.” But as to Titus, he sailed over from Achaia to Alexandria, and that sooner than the winter season did usually permit; so he took with him those forces he was sent for, and marching with great expedition, he came suddenly to Ptolemais, and there finding his father, together with the two legions, the fifth and the tenth, which were the most eminent legions of all, he joined them to that fifteenth legion which was with his father; eighteen cohorts followed these legions…” (Wars of the Jews, Book 3,Chapter 4)

Each full strength legion had six cohorts so the "eighteen cohorts" mentioned by Josephus is made up of 6+6+6.

This idea that 666 could represent legions is supported by parallel accounts in the apocryphal Gospel of Barnabas and Canonical gospels. In the Mark's account of Christ healing the demon possessed man we find (Mark 5:9): "'...Jesus asked him (the demon), 'What is your name?' 'My name is Legion,' he replied, 'for we are many.'" In the Gospel of Barnabas (Chapter 21) account of this event: "Jesus asked them (demons) how many they were. They answered : Six thousand six hundred and sixty-six." In this case it is a series of four 6's or 6666 which would indicate four legions if 666 indicates three. Now some will undoubtedly question why Revelation would refer to three legions while the Gospel of Barnabas would refer to four. The answer is simple. The account in Revelation is referring to a different battle than the account in the Gospel of Barnabus. (The four legions of 6666 are the XXI Rapax, V Alaudae, I Italica and XXII Primigenia who participated in the Second Battle of Cremona or Bedriacum in 69CE on the side of Emperor Vitellius. Other legions that participated in this battle along with the four mentioned were not at full strength and therefore could not be represented by 6’s. Their general Caecina, who tried to betray Vitellius, was put in chains by his own men and was freed after the battle had been won by Vespasian’s army. The inclusion of this episode in the Gospel allegories indicates Christian involvement in the Roman civil war that erupted during the ”Jewish” Revolt of 66-73CE. Josephus had “prophesied” Vespasian’s rise to Emperor, so it appears he may have had some help in making this prophecy come true. ) What this all suggests is that both Revelation and the Gospel accounts are elaborate allegory based at least in part, on the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus.

The problem with seeing the connections between Biblical allegory and the writings of Josephus is that in order for them to make sense, we must also assume that Josephus was also hiding something that some were able to discern in some way. The primary secret that we must assume that Josephus was hiding, was Christian involvement in the so-called Jewish Revolt of 66-73CE. Josephus makes no literal mention of Christians at all in his Wars of the Jews but this “tomb” only appears empty.
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#2
RE: Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
(April 24, 2013 at 2:09 pm)swordwords Wrote: I assume that most are familiar with Revelation 13:3 which reads:

3 “And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.”

Hmmm... it could be a reference to Phineas Gage. Thinking
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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#3
RE: Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
Quote:Each full strength legion had six cohorts so the "eighteen cohorts" mentioned by Josephus is made up of 6+6+6.

There were 10 cohorts in a legion. There were six "centuries" in a cohort.

Revelation dates itself to late 68 or very early 69 AD.

Rev 17:10

Quote:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The Five who are Fallen
Augustus d 14 AD
Tiberius d. 37
Caligula d. 41
Claudius d. 54
Nero d. June/68

The One Who "Is."
Galba d. Jan. 69

The One to "Come"
Vespasian d. 71

However, accepting this shit as Jewish apocalyptic writings which were later plagiarized by xtians, the author could easily count the five dead emperors and would of course know about Galba. He can be forgiven for not anticipating the temporary reigns of Otho and Vitellius before Vespasian's troops reached Italy and put an end to the Year of the 4 Emperors.

But whoever wrote this would have been sitting in Jerusalem watching Vespasian tighten the noose around the city in preparation for making his move on it. There can have been little doubt how the Roman assault would play out. The Jewish rebels were indeed facing an apocalypse! Famously, to bring Josephus back into play, it was known that part of Josephus' ploy to save his own sorry ass after Jotapata when he defected to the Romans was to predict that Vespasian would become emperor. Vespasian was so flattered he made Josephus a retainer. The only thing which delayed the Roman attack was the political situation in Rome itself. When the attack came, Vespasian was in Egypt securing the imperial grain supply while his son, Titus, commanded the army in Judaea.
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#4
RE: Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
1) What's the point of the comparison? We already know that Revelations was a bunch of metaphors for the political-religious climate at the time.

2) "Apparently mortal" wounds healing probably happened a hell of a lot more than you think. The Jews and Christians may have sucked at medicine, but the Romans weren't terrible slouches at it by comparison at the time. And head wounds produce a lot of blood - enough to panic anyone - even if they're not that bad.
[Image: Untitled2_zpswaosccbr.png]
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#5
RE: Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
No it doesn't.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#6
RE: Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
(April 24, 2013 at 2:59 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: 1) What's the point of the comparison? We already know that Revelations was a bunch of metaphors for the political-religious climate at the time.

2) "Apparently mortal" wounds healing probably happened a hell of a lot more than you think. The Jews and Christians may have sucked at medicine, but the Romans weren't terrible slouches at it by comparison at the time. And head wounds produce a lot of blood - enough to panic anyone - even if they're not that bad.

Greco-Roman medicine was probably about as good as western medicine was before the discovery of the "Germ Theory of Disease" in the 19th Century..
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#7
RE: Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
To be honest, this does not alter my views on the Revelation.
Nevertheless, I hope I did not underestimate the historic side of your post.
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#8
RE: Does this alter anyone’s thinking about the "Beast" of Revelation?
This whole coversation (and site) is akin to watching ants running around in a glass ant farm.

It's interesting for a few minutes.... then the realization sets in.

You want to smash it on the ground and set them free! But the irony is that they will only regroup and do the same thing they did in the prison of a farm.

There are so many Gospel quotes approriate here...but...."why" comes to mind?
Quis ut Deus?
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