Atheist view on formation of...

[festive1]

I think what you are getting at is very complex. Pocaracas' answer is the short, modern version.
But it seems like you are trying to get at how the Jews (as a people and culture) came into being... Correct?
Assuming this is what you're getting at, there are many University departments which study this. People have built entire careers explaining how Jewish culture developed and was shaped by other cultures they encountered. The Bible (OT) and Torah are palimpsests of the stories of those cultures. It's not something that can or should be explained in a simple online post...
My husband got his undergrad in ancient studies and religion, I'd be happy to ask him for some books on the topic to recommend if you'd like.

[That guy who asked questions]

I think what you are getting at is very complex. Pocaracas' answer is the short, modern version.
But it seems like you are trying to get at how the Jews (as a people and culture) came into being... Correct?
Assuming this is what you're getting at, there are many University departments which study this. People have built entire careers explaining how Jewish culture developed and was shaped by other cultures they encountered. The Bible (OT) and Torah are palimpsests of the stories of those cultures. It's not something that can or should be explained in a simple online post...
My husband got his undergrad in ancient studies and religion, I'd be happy to ask him for some books on the topic to recommend if you'd like.

That's right. I'm wondering what possibilities there are that could have led the Jews into Egyptian captivity, led them out, and established the deity they have. Very specifically I wonder why they chose the laws described within Leviticus and Deuteronomy as the sovereign laws of the society. I would appreciate links or books that can legitimately and conclusively answer these questions with a naturalistic approach. I would ask for information that could possibly prove the supernatural interventions described in the Torah but it seems every time I trust a religiously affiliated group I am lied to.

[Simon Moon]

[quote='That guy who asked questions' pid='440247'
That's right. I'm wondering what possibilities there are that could have led the Jews into Egyptian captivity, led them out, and established the deity they have. Very specifically I wonder why they chose the laws described within Leviticus and Deuteronomy as the sovereign laws of the society. I would appreciate links or books that can legitimately and conclusively answer these questions with a naturalistic approach. I would ask for information that could possibly prove the supernatural interventions described in the Torah but it seems every time I trust a religiously affiliated group I am lied to.
[/quote]

First of all, there is no evidence that there were ever any Jews in Egypt as slaves.

The history of the Hebrew deity is a little complex, but Yahweh started as a typical tribal war god who leads divine armies against Israel's enemies. Other tribes in the area had very similar gods. He is no different than any other near east tribal deity. Hell, he even had a wife, Ashera.

The idea that the Hebrew god is somehow unique to any god that came before, is a much later idea.

The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are brutal and superstitious. No different than other Iron Age tribal laws of the time.

Here's a good book to start with -

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein

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Why is my post above empty? When I go to edit it, everything is there.

Here it is again.



First of all, there is no evidence that there were ever any Jews in Egypt as slaves.

The history of the Hebrew deity is a little complex, but Yahweh started as a typical tribal war god who leads divine armies against Israel's enemies. Other tribes in the area had very similar gods. He is no different than any other near east tribal deity. Hell, he even had a wife, Ashera.

The idea that the Hebrew god is somehow unique to any god that came before, is a much later idea.

The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are brutal and superstitious. No different than other Iron Age tribal laws of the time.

Here's a good start -

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein

[pocaracas]

Tib has a lot of explaining to do.

First of all, there is no evidence that there were ever any Jews in Egypt as slaves.

The history of the Hebrew deity is a little complex, but Yahweh started as a typical tribal war god who leads divine armies against Israel's enemies. Other tribes in the area had very similar gods. He is no different than any other near east tribal deity. Hell, he even had a wife, Ashera.

The idea that the Hebrew god is somehow unique to any god that came before, is a much later idea.

The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are brutal and superstitious. No different than other Iron Age tribal laws of the time.

Here's a good book to start with -

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein
[hr' Wrote: Why is my post above empty? When I go to edit it, everything is there.

Here it is again.

]

First of all, there is no evidence that there were ever any Jews in Egypt as slaves.

The history of the Hebrew deity is a little complex, but Yahweh started as a typical tribal war god who leads divine armies against Israel's enemies. Other tribes in the area had very similar gods. He is no different than any other near east tribal deity. Hell, he even had a wife, Ashera.

The idea that the Hebrew god is somehow unique to any god that came before, is a much later idea.

The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are brutal and superstitious. No different than other Iron Age tribal laws of the time.

Here's a good start -

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein

[Minimalist]

I'm wondering what possibilities there are that could have led the Jews into Egyptian captivity, led them out, and established the deity they have.

There is no evidence whatsoever that such a series of things ever happened.

As to how they came to believe it..... how does any culture develop an origin myth? The Romans had a pair of twins dropped in a river and raised by a wolf. Absurd? Of course.

Here is the Arapaho creation myth.

There was a deluge, nothing but water. A man was walking around on the water for four day and four nights, carrying a Flat Pipe. He wondered what he could do to protect it. For a total of six days he walked around with the Pipe, weeping and fasting.

On the morning of the seventh day, he decided that there needed to be earth for the Pipe to rest on. So he called to the four directions (northwest, northeast, southeast, and southwest) for people to come and help find land. Then he called forth seven cottonwood trees (though there was still no dry land), and then called forth creatures of the air and of the sea.

He asked if anyone knew where land was. The Turtle said that it was at the bottom of the ocean. So the Man asked the animals if they could dive down and find it. A series of creatures dives for the land. First: The Grebe; Second: two waterfowls; Third: three waterfowls, including the Kingfisher; Fourth: Otter, Beaver, Packed Bird (coot), and Garter snake; Fifth: black snake, two kinds of ducks, goose, and crane; Sixth: all the creatures dive. But each time, they fail.
Then, the seventh dive is made by Turtle in the company of the Man. Before the Man dives, he ritually moves the Flat Pipe four times, then touches it to his body a fifth time. It turns into a Red-headed Duck and it accompanies him on the dive along with the Turtle. Both the Duck and the Turtle succeed in bringing up a sod of earth for the Man (Arapaho).
The Man then dried the earth, then cast it in four directions (southeast, southwest, northwest, and northeast) and created the Earth.

It's no more or less ridiculous than any others.

[paulpablo]

If no logical and naturalistic view can explain the formation of the country then it seems to.........

OK but who said there was no logical view that could explain the formation of the country?

Israel. What is the atheistic view on the formation of the country and culture of Israel?

There is no one atheistic view on this or one theistic view on this.

What possibilities are there other than the views outlined by what is seen within The Bible?

I don't really know what the bible says about the formation of Israel but I wouldn't discount it as being true before I've even read it, but if it involves god saying "let there be Israel" Or anything even slightly like that, then I would guess the probability of it being true is very low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

As to how they came to believe it..... how does any culture develop an origin myth? The Romans had a pair of twins dropped in a river and raised by a wolf.

I actually read something about roman history and creation myths the other day which said some Italians even attempted to provide archeological evidence for this, it was something like a hut that romulus or remus built up in the hills.

[Rev. Rye]

If no logical and naturalistic view can explain the formation of the country then it seems to me the only way to explain their formation is by what is seen in The Bible or in the Torah, which involves assistance by a higher power who had supposedly made himself known to them and laid the foundation for their entire society. Therefore, could it be possible that the entire culture of Israel can be seen somewhat as a proof to the existence of Yahweh and then later on his supposed son Yah'shua?

Is it impossible that the nation of Israel was formed when, during WW1, Britain took over land belonging to the Ottoman Empire, called it the Mandate of Palestine, set up the seeds for a Jewish homeland there, and, by 1948, decided to allow it to govern itself, and call itself Israel? Why would it be proof of the existence of Jehovah?

EDIT: WOO HOO! 1800th Post!

[festive1]

The quote function isn't working on my phone...
@That Guy Who Asked Questions:
What I mean by my post, is that no culture can quickly be explained. In my view to say any culture is simple takes away from said culture's history and legacy. This is not to imply in any way that there is some supernatural or devine explanation for the creation or growth of a culture. Rather, one must have the appropriate historical context. The mechanics by which a culture develops are relatively simple. A group of people are influenced by the various groups they come in contact with and they adopt certain characteristics of these various cultures. This is complex, because in the case of the origins of Jewish culture, it is necessary to have some sense of the many different cultures ancient Jews came in contact with, including Egyptian, Babylonian, etc. Which is complex.
The Jews created their god, just like every other culture throughout history, from the Aztecs to the Egyptians to the Greeks. The Jews are the "chosen" people of god, because these are Jewish stories. Why would their deity be supporting another group? When you have an understanding of the various cultures the Jews came in contact with, it's difficult to deny their similarities and easy to see how these cultures shaped each other.

[That guy who asked questions]

The quote function isn't working on my phone...
@That Guy Who Asked Questions:
What I mean by my post, is that no culture can quickly be explained. In my view to say any culture is simple takes away from said culture's history and legacy. This is not to imply in any way that there is some supernatural or devine explanation for the creation or growth of a culture. Rather, one must have the appropriate historical context. The mechanics by which a culture develops are relatively simple. A group of people are influenced by the various groups they come in contact with and they adopt certain characteristics of these various cultures. This is complex, because in the case of the origins of Jewish culture, it is necessary to have some sense of the many different cultures ancient Jews came in contact with, including Egyptian, Babylonian, etc. Which is complex.
The Jews created their god, just like every other culture throughout history, from the Aztecs to the Egyptians to the Greeks. The Jews are the "chosen" people of god, because these are Jewish stories. Why would their deity be supporting another group? When you have an understanding of the various cultures the Jews came in contact with, it's difficult to deny their similarities and easy to see how these cultures shaped each other.

Thank you. My questions have been answered.