Hypotheticals, transsexuals and same sex marriage

[TaraJo]

So, I thought some over this and figured it would be an interesting thought question to post here.

Back story is, my boyfriend proposed. We're planning on getting married. We don't have an exact date yet, largely because he wants to come out to his family, first.

Now, for those of you who remember me talking about the two of us, my fiance' and I are both transsexual. He's female to male and I'm male to female. That right there brings up a whole host of questions regarding same sex marriage.

To expand a little more, as far as anyone can tell, I've made the switch but he hasn't yet. So, as far as most people see right now, we're a lesbian couple. Should we, under that circumstance be able to get married?

To go into another hypothetical, let's say we met and started dating and even married before either one of us transitioned. What happens to our marriage when one of us switches? Is it automatically annulled? And if so, at what point does the government do that?

Or, if you want to handle a more practical matter for us, traditionally, when a couple marries, the wife takes the husbands last name. Some places even have laws, enshrining that tradition. What about us? Does that mean I can take his last name or that he would be forced to take mine?

[Savannahw]

Wow lots of questions. Firstly congrats on your engagement. Also I wish you the best luck coming out to his family.
As to legally being able to get married, it largely depends where you live. I would help you look those laws up if you like.
Traditionally the wife takes the last name. However you aren't a traditional couple, so throw that out the window if you want. If you want to take his last name go for it. I took my husbands. I love it.
Again good luck with your marriage.

[Rahul]

To expand a little more, as far as anyone can tell, I've made the switch but he hasn't yet.

How far have you switched? Have you had gender reassignment surgery or have you only been taking estrogen and had cosmetic surgery?

Really, though, on your birth certificate you are listed as one gender, on your fiance's birth certificate it lists the opposite gender.

Legally I don't think anyone can stop you in any state of the US for that reason alone.

[Violet]

Anyone can take whatever name. It wouldn't impact marriage in a state where same-sex marriage is legal.

---

How far have you switched? Have you had gender reassignment surgery or have you only been taking estrogen and had cosmetic surgery?

What is gender reassignment surgery? Lobotomy?

The surgery IS a cosmetic surgery.

Really, though, on your birth certificate you are listed as one gender, on your fiance's birth certificate it lists the opposite gender.

Legally I don't think anyone can stop you in any state of the US for that reason alone.

Unless you change that. Likely in Texas? I'm afraid not. Tara: move the fuck out of Texas.

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

My friend Elise is transgendered and she married her girlfriend, Melissa without any problems. She currently looks more masculine than feminine, I suppose. I assume they were married as man and woman, but I never asked about the details.

You might have a problem if your current identification indicates you are female and your partner's says the same. I don't know.

[Rahul]

The surgery IS a cosmetic surgery.

Pbbht. No. We can't just change the definition of things without society as a whole making that choice.

Unless you change that. Likely in Texas? I'm afraid not. Tara: move the fuck out of Texas.

If you live in Texas all you need to do is move to Austin. It's a liberal paradise in the middle of conservative country.

Both my gay cousins live there. For obvious reasons.

[Violet]

Pbbht. No. We can't just change the definition of things without society as a whole making that choice.

Would you like to explain to me how it is NOT a cosmetic surgery, that is: 'involving or relating to treatment intended to restore or improve a person's appearance' and surgically administered?

Anyway, yes... it would do 'society' a bit of good to recognize that the person is a man or woman or whatever irrespective of their genitalia.

If you live in Texas all you need to do is move to Austin. It's a liberal paradise in the middle of conservative country.

Both my gay cousins live there. For obvious reasons.

Does living in Austin happen to change the state (and federal) laws of Texas and the USA? Keep Austin weird, sure... but don't have the illusion that it isn't Texas

[Rahul]

Would you like to explain to me how it is NOT a cosmetic surgery, that is: 'involving or relating to treatment intended to restore or improve a person's appearance' and surgically administered?

Because removing a penis and scrotum from a male body does not restore anything. And unfortunately due to the crudity of our modern ability to perform gender reassignment, it's not going to improve the appearance.

I remember watching an HBO show years ago where both male to female and female to male transgenders that had undergone the surgery were griping about how crappy the results were asthetically.

Cosmetic can improve, such as reshaping a nose that is considered unattractive or breast augmentation.

Cosmetic can restore such as repairing damage done in an accident.

Changing a Vagina to a Penis or a Penis to a Vagina does neither of these things.

It helps someone that unfortunately is a woman born in a male body or a man born in a female body.

I can only imagine how frustrating and depressing that must be. My heart goes out to all of them.

[Savannahw]

Sex reassignment surgery is more than just done to someones outer appearance Violet. It can involve Hysterectomy, Mastectomy, chest reconstruction, Face reconstruction, as well as hormones and therapy, for examples. I think that the range and scope of the surgeries involved is why it is classified to my knowledge as cosmetic.

[Violet]

Because removing a penis and scrotum from a male body does not restore anything. And unfortunately due to the crudity of our modern ability to perform gender reassignment, it's not going to improve the appearance.

*AND* replacing it with a vagina. I'd rather have the ugliest vagina in the world than what I already possess: the prettiest ladycock in the universe.

Really, just getting rid of that is a MASSIVE improvement: I can wear sexy/tight clothing without feeling self-conscious More really, it restores a shit ton of self-confidence in a small subset of the population.

Also really... the requirement in that definition that it be improving anything is simply ridiculous, but then: I didn't even look at it before putting it down.

Finally really: our vaginas are AMAZING these days... medical science has come a long ways, and it'll keep getting better. 100 years ago, and you'd be lucky if the hole didn't close up during recovery. In any event... losing penis/scrotum ≠ gaining vagina.

I was kidding, I had one more important bit to note: changing a person's gender is not possible without extensive brainwashing, and even then: it is unlikely to be successful. Changing their socially-recognized gender requires no surgery, only the society to recognize the person to be of <whatever gender>.

I remember watching an HBO show years ago where both male to female and female to male transgenders that had undergone the surgery were griping about how crappy the results were asthetically.

And then you can see other transsexual women who have quite pretty vaginas. You'd think they'd be happier now that they're *on even terms with cis fish*, but no no... they want everything to be perfect.

By the way... transmen have a legit reason to be not impressed: the surgeries available to them are quite expensive, quite a bit more complicated, and *do not provide an equatable penis to a cis man*, whereas transwomen have it the same as cisgendered women.

Welcome to not having television be your source.

Cosmetic can improve, such as reshaping a nose that is considered unattractive or breast augmentation.

Cosmetic can restore such as repairing damage done in an accident.

Changing a Vagina to a Penis or a Penis to a Vagina does neither of these things.

Or they can seriously fuck up, and wreck a body. Changing a penis to a vagina is QUITE an improvement for most transwomen... changing a vagina to a penis is QUITE an improvement for most transmen (unfortunately, current medicine does not provide a particularly effective option for this). At least their clitoris engorges a bit from T... and their breasts can be utterly removed, and they might grow some body and facial hair... silver lining?

It helps someone that unfortunately is a woman born in a male body or a man born in a female body.

I can only imagine how frustrating and depressing that must be. My heart goes out to all of them.

Is it really such an unfortunate thing, I wonder. I mean: you could just be ugly without an excuse.

Glad to hear it... I might soon need a heart transplant. But... do I have to share my new heart with some other hooker?