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Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 4:56 pm
I'm currently in a debate with a theist over whether or not Jesus existed.
Points he's made so far:
-Modern scholars agree Jesus existed, so he existed
-Tacticus and Josephus are reliable historians, so we should accept their accounts of Jesus.
-The writers of the Gospel died in very gruesome, martyr-like ways, so why would they die for something that wasn't even true?
Points I've made:
-Tacticus and Josephus were born AFTER the events of Jesus allegedly occurred, making their accounts as reliable as the Gospels (not very reliable)
-Josephus' account of Jesus was written after the first gospel was written.
-Josephus' "Testimonium Flavianum" was tampered with.
-Josephus' 'Jamesian Reference" refers to a different Jesus than Jesus Christ
So I've debunked his first two points (even though he won't acknowledge I have), but he keeps flaunting that third point of his. Any recommendations on how to end this debate in my favor, whether it be debunking the third point or addressing a new point?
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 4:59 pm
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2013 at 5:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 24, 2013 at 4:56 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: -Modern scholars agree Jesus existed, so he existed Phlogiston.
Quote:-Tacticus and Josephus are reliable historians, so we should accept their accounts of Jesus.
We -can- accept their accounts without ever invoking any "historical" jesus. This is not to say that we should, simply that we can and we are still not left with a "historical jesus". Simply stories told by those who -believe- in a "jesus".
Quote:-The writers of the Gospel died in very gruesome, martyr-like ways, so why would they die for something that wasn't even true?
Happens all the time, laying aside that this martyr shit is propaganda in the first place.
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 5:01 pm
The terrorists that died flying into the twin towers died in a pretty nasty way. Does that make them right too? They thought they were martyr's too.
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 5:23 pm
Are you on Omegle? I just had the same discussion like an hour ago...
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 5:27 pm
(June 24, 2013 at 5:23 pm)wwjs Wrote: Are you on Omegle? I just had the same discussion like an hour ago...
LOL, no, I am on Facebook.
I understand a debate on Facebook might be a bit of a waste of time but goddammit I'm right and he's wrong.
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 5:40 pm
Everything I needed to know about life I learned on Dagobah.
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 5:40 pm
(June 24, 2013 at 5:01 pm)Insanity x Wrote: The terrorists that died flying into the twin towers died in a pretty nasty way. Does that make them right too? They thought they were martyr's too.
Their deaths were instantaneous, they were not imprisoned on numerous occasions, they were not stone, nor whipped for their beliefs, no one threatened their lives over and over. The disciples did not see themselves as martyrs, they actually placed themselves below others, they considered they were servants to others.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 5:42 pm
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2013 at 5:42 pm by Minimalist.)
Quote:Points he's made so far:
-Modern scholars agree Jesus existed, so he existed
-Tacticus and Josephus are reliable historians, so we should accept their accounts of Jesus.
-The writers of the Gospel died in very gruesome, martyr-like ways, so why would they die for something that wasn't even true?
The "modern scholars" argument fails to account for the disparity of views among those modern scholars - and ignores the fact that it is also modern scholars who think jesus is a pipe dream. Prior to the Enlightenment it would cost you your life to doubt fucking jesus. I have yet to see a reasonable explanation of "the historical jesus" (whatever the fuck that means!) backed up by actual evidence.
Tacitus never mentioned anyone named "Jesus" and Josephus' TF is a 4th century forgery.
There is no evidence that there were any disciples any more than there is evidence of jesus himself. The gospels are anonymous books, written at an unknown time but most likely well after any "disciples" were dead. In fact, the disciples seem to fulfill nothing more than the Greek chorus of contemporary literature. A bunch of guys to say "Holy SHIT, Lord" whenever their boy did something miraculous.
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 5:44 pm
(June 24, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Godschild Wrote: Their deaths were instantaneous, they were not imprisoned on numerous occasions, they were not stone, nor whipped for their beliefs, no one threatened their lives over and over. The disciples did not see themselves as martyrs, they actually placed themselves below others, they considered they were servants to others.
And you are basing this on what evidence exactly?
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RE: Debating the existence of Jesus
June 24, 2013 at 5:57 pm
(June 24, 2013 at 5:40 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 24, 2013 at 5:01 pm)Insanity x Wrote: The terrorists that died flying into the twin towers died in a pretty nasty way. Does that make them right too? They thought they were martyr's too.
Their deaths were instantaneous, they were not imprisoned on numerous occasions, they were not stone, nor whipped for their beliefs, no one threatened their lives over and over. The disciples did not see themselves as martyrs, they actually placed themselves below others, they considered they were servants to others.
Neither were your fictional disciples.
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