Evidence?

[Minimalist]

That's how people receive communication... Huh

Certainly not in antiquity where less than 1% of the population was literate enough to be able to read shit like your bible.

Try again.

[Retorth]

Because you choose to reject him.

Then that isn't free will.

[fr0d0]

Because you choose to reject him.

Then that isn't free will.

How isn't it

[Retorth]

He already gave you free will and you're choosing not to believe in him. Living apart from him is self condemnation.

Can you see the contradiction there? You say I have freewill then you say living apart from him is condemning myself.

But if I have the free will, why does he condemn me?

Because you choose to reject him.

Again, if I choose to reject why should I be condemned if given free will to do so? If god doesn't give free will and living apart from him is cause for condemnation, I can completely understand that, however.

[fr0d0]

I don't really understand your problem Retorth. If you can choose to believe or not believe, then you have free will.
Oh wait, I see... you're saying that because God says living apart from him is condemned, then this is God being inflexible?

Look at it this way: The Christian concept is a model for the best a human could possibly aspire to. Now it is clear we can say that anything opposing this concept results in the opposite: the worst a human could possibly sink to.

So.. condemnation is actually you choosing to do what would be detrimental to your well being.

So could you equally say you have no choice in life because some choices are self destructive? What about greed, lust, jealousy etc... these instincts can be destructive even though the choice to do them is natural. We can control our instincts with a strong moral stance. Intellectually we control what would do us harm.

Christianity asserts itself as the ultimate moral stance. Belief in God is the acceptance of ultimate morality. Without the choice, there is no morality.

[downbeatplumb]

I don't really understand your problem Retorth. If you can choose to believe or not believe, then you have free will.
Oh wait, I see... you're saying that because God says living apart from him is condemned, then this is God being inflexible?

Look at it this way: The Christian concept is a model for the best a human could possibly aspire to. Now it is clear we can say that anything opposing this concept results in the opposite: the worst a human could possibly sink to.

So.. condemnation is actually you choosing to do what would be detrimental to your well being.

So could you equally say you have no choice in life because some choices are self destructive? What about greed, lust, jealousy etc... these instincts can be destructive even though the choice to do them is natural. We can control our instincts with a strong moral stance. Intellectually we control what would do us harm.

Christianity asserts itself as the ultimate moral stance. Belief in God is the acceptance of ultimate morality. Without the choice, there is no morality.

'Christianity asserts itself as the ultimate moral stand'

Christianity is linked closely with the old testament which is an odious tome advocating genocide, incest, rape of females and slavery.
The new testament may not be quite so horrific as the old teatament but it did not supcede the old testament.
I have even heard that the words of that Christ fella validated the old testament.

I was at a debate between creationists and scientists the other day, when one of the attendees a local historian explained that she was writing a book on the 'myth of the good christian'.
Explaining that she had evidence that until th 1700s, people the world over were basically bastards, enslaving, invading and genrerally acting not very nice, until the zietgiest started to change.
Now admittedly the zietgiest started to change in christian countries but that does not explain the 1700 years when christians where bastards.

That gap implies that it was something other than religion that made people nicer.

My guess would be a scientific approach made people look at the world in a different way.

Thats right I'm saying scientific morality trumps christs.

---

edited for bad spelling

[Ace Otana]

I don't think can test God Himself since He is outside spacetime.

That's one of the big reasons of why I'm an atheist.

but most people think God acts in the world so there must be certain things that are detectable

Would be nice if someone could provide evidence.

I don't necessarily mean by scientific instruments.

How convenient.

Anyway when I say God I tend to mean the Christian God

Why the christian god? Why not thor, zeus, ra, oisis or odin? Also what makes the christian god more real than any other imaginary friend?

[Retorth]

you're saying that because God says living apart from him is condemned, then this is God being inflexible?

Not inflexible. Indecisive more like.

Look at it this way: The Christian concept is a model for the best a human could possibly aspire to.

I disagree, but for the sake of keeping on topic I won't go into it.

Now it is clear we can say that anything opposing this concept results in the opposite: the worst a human could possibly sink to.

If, for the sake of discussion, I was to assume that the above statement about the christian model being the best a human could be was true then yes. Again, for the sake of keeping on topic I won't go into it.

So.. condemnation is actually you choosing to do what would be detrimental to your well being.

If I smoke weed and take other assorted drugs and end up a drug addict on the verge of death then yes I have condemned myself.. However, here it is god who condemns us for not following him while still claiming to give us free will that confuses me.

So could you equally say you have no choice in life because some choices are self destructive? What about greed, lust, jealousy etc... these instincts can be destructive even though the choice to do them is natural. We can control our instincts with a strong moral stance. Intellectually we control what would do us harm.

Christianity asserts itself as the ultimate moral stance. Belief in God is the acceptance of ultimate morality. Without the choice, there is no morality.

If choice equals morality as you say then god isn't moral since he does not give you a choice anyway. Whats more he still condemns you for making what he perceives to be the wrong choice. That is being plain indecisive.

[fr0d0]

LOL I think you completely misunderstood that Retorth

What I was saying but you read differently.. was not the 'Christianity' was anything - more that the perfect model people aspire to would be another way of thinking about it. You failed to look at that in an unprejudiced way.

So anyway.. lets move on...

1. Not inflexible. Indecisive more like.

What??? God is precisely decisive and this is exactly what you're condemning him for. If you choose not to believe in him, to do bad stuff, you are choosing hell for yourself - no one is imposing that on you - you are completely free to choose that. Explain to me why you are not.

If I smoke weed and take other assorted drugs and end up a drug addict on the verge of death then yes I have condemned myself.. However, here it is god who condemns us for not following him while still claiming to give us free will that confuses me.

What???

How does God giving you free will and you choosing to not believe (which then makes you anti God/ lost) then not equate to you having free will??? This is completely illogical to me. Again... Please explain.

If choice equals morality as you say then god isn't moral since he does not give you a choice anyway. Whats more he still condemns you for making what he perceives to be the wrong choice. That is being plain indecisive.

There can be no morality without choice. Choice ≠ morality.

A god giving you no choice cannot be enabling you to have morals. Morals are only possible with choice. Outside of Christianity... If you perceive yourself to make moral decisions then you are already claiming this choice. How does you're consideration of God then take moral decisions away from you. Again... complete bemusement from me.

God is giving you a choice. You are free to choose completely, within the normal physical constraints of the universe.

If you choose to deny God, God being life, then you are condemning yourself to death/ Hell. You choose it. It is your choice.

How is God indecisive here??? Where did you get that from in your statement??? What are the at least two equal things that God is presenting here without clear direction???

---

'Christianity asserts itself as the ultimate moral stand'

That has to one of the most ignorant regurgitation of rhetoric I've had the misfortune of reading for a long time. Congratulations.

[solarwave]

As I said Solarwave, how could God be distinguished from a super advanced alien that seems completely like God? For example.

EvF

That would be some pretty amazing technology. Faith I suppose. When you start talking about super advanced aliens though it isn't such a big leap to God.

I don't think can test God Himself since He is outside spacetime.

That's one of the big reasons of why I'm an atheist.

but most people think God acts in the world so there must be certain things that are detectable

Would be nice if someone could provide evidence.

I don't necessarily mean by scientific instruments.

How convenient.

Anyway when I say God I tend to mean the Christian God

Why the christian god? Why not thor, zeus, ra, oisis or odin? Also what makes the christian god more real than any other imaginary friend?

A big reason your an atheist is because God doesn't conform to what you want?

I don't care about the other gods because i have reason to believe in my God which counts out the others.