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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 9:17 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Current cells are dependent upon current membranes. That you think this must have always have been the case just goes to show you haven't taken the time to educate yourself on the subject you feel qualified to opine upon. I have no qualms stating, upfront, that I am no biologist. If you were even nearly as knowledgeable as you clearly imagine yourself to be..then why should -I- (or anyone) have to or be capable of educating -you- on some basic shit? You need to reassess, and it shouldn't take any specialized knowledge for you to come to that realization yourself. not looking for excuses; perhaps you don't understand the assignment.
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 9:25 pm
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2015 at 9:31 pm by pocaracas.)
Snow, can you understand big numbers?
Big, as in billions and trillions... can you grasp intuitively the difference between ten billion and ten trillion?
You can? Then you're greater then most. I can't.
Still, I can understand that simple cell membranes could have formed spontaneously, naturally, under some conditions.
Given the tiny nature of these membranes and probable vast reach of the conditions required, it is reasonable that many many many trillions of such membranes got created.
A few of these could have enveloped some extra proteins that's giving rise to the first cell you claim to be impossible.
If there were many proteins flotation around and many membranes being formed, or stands to reason that some could actually have overlapped...
Do remember also that there were no predators, nothing that would destroy a stable structure... Given enough time and enough membranes, things just happened, and you got lots of cells.
Big numbers means that very unlikely events do end up happening.
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 9:30 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 8:15 pm)snowtracks Wrote: wonderful. now, what about the cell membrane and cell evolving at same time but each dependent upon the other? Where do you get the silly idea that the internal complexity of the cell and cell membrane somehow had to evolve at the same time?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_soup
The first replicators are thought to have arisen in some way (currently unknown, not impossible) sometime in the first billion years after earth formed. They were replicating molecules, not cells. Replicating molecules don't have exoskeletons. They don't fossilize.
The successful ones persisted and expanded their domains, but they were in solution, not cells. Somewhere in the next BILLION to BILLION AND A HALF years, prokaryotes occurred. We see zillions of these around today, happily replicating for the last several BILLION years. Prokaryotes are bags of replicators. So at the soup to prokaryote transformation, you didn't have two separate evolutions intersecting. You had the replicating soup which all of a sudden(sic) invented the bag to hold itself in.
Over the next three quarters of a BILLION years the prokaryotes descended with modification and eventually, almost 2,000,000,000 years ago left indications that they had developed internal mechanisms to a sufficient degree that we can call them eukaryotes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o...ry_of_life
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? 
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 10:32 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 9:25 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Snow, can you understand big numbers?
Big, as in billions and trillions... can you grasp intuitively the difference between ten billion and ten trillion?
You can? Then you're greater then most. I can't.
Still, I can understand that simple cell membranes could have formed spontaneously, naturally, under some conditions.
Given the tiny nature of these membranes and probable vast reach of the conditions required, it is reasonable that many many many trillions of such membranes got created.
A few of these could have enveloped some extra proteins that's giving rise to the first cell you claim to be impossible.
If there were many proteins flotation around and many membranes being formed, or stands to reason that some could actually have overlapped...
Do remember also that there were no predators, nothing that would destroy a stable structure... Given enough time and enough membranes, things just happened, and you got lots of cells.
Big numbers means that very unlikely events do end up happening. all right, at least you're propounding a theory.
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 10:34 pm
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2015 at 10:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Now if only you could reciprocate. No..wait, wait..I forgot.
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 11:31 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 10:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Now if only you could reciprocate. No..wait, wait..I forgot.
"Abracadabra!" The creation model can explain it. Orthodox christians potentially underestimate God's nature, power, capacities by at least ∞^7+ whereas, atheists underestimate by ∞^11+. A point compared to a plane provides an infinite greater magnitude.
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 11:40 pm
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2015 at 11:41 pm by IATIA.)
For starters: ∞^7= ∞^11= ∞ Any function performed on an infinity still equals an infinity.
And apparently you still have no desire to read, listen or acknowledge any real science and consistently rebut with "goddidit".
Is the problem a language barrier? You just know two words? Nuh-uh and goddidit?
You have received formidable answers to every question with source and reiteration, yet you still respond with "Nuh-uh, goddidit"
Damn, talk about creatard.
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 11:45 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 9:17 pm)snowtracks Wrote: (January 10, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Current cells are dependent upon current membranes. That you think this must have always have been the case just goes to show you haven't taken the time to educate yourself on the subject you feel qualified to opine upon. I have no qualms stating, upfront, that I am no biologist. If you were even nearly as knowledgeable as you clearly imagine yourself to be..then why should -I- (or anyone) have to or be capable of educating -you- on some basic shit? You need to reassess, and it shouldn't take any specialized knowledge for you to come to that realization yourself. not looking for excuses; perhaps you don't understand the assignment.
It's not an excuse, you dismissive ass; the first cells do not have to be the same as modern cells. That's kinda what the evolutionary model is all about, change over time. Just because you baselessly assert that cells never change, solely because it's convenient to your argument, doesn't make Rhythm's answer an excuse. It just makes you ignorant.
As if your insistence on using nothing but arguments from ignorance wasn't enough hint of that. 
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 11:45 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 11:31 pm)snowtracks Wrote: (January 10, 2015 at 10:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Now if only you could reciprocate. No..wait, wait..I forgot.
"Abracadabra!" The creation model can explain it. Orthodox christians potentially underestimate God's nature, power, capacities by at least ∞^7+ whereas, atheists underestimate by ∞^11+. A point compared to a plane provides an infinite greater magnitude.
Really... god did it.... god didn't do anything.
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RE: Abiogenesis is impossible
January 10, 2015 at 11:50 pm
If it could be shown even to the tiniest degree that "God" could do anything, we wouldn't be having these discussions.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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