A Matter of Faith

[Chas]

The best evidence for god, is god?

Well I'm convinced.

As In the best Evidence for Barack Obama is Barack Obama. Or are you so foolish to Argue this as well?

You have yet to present any evidence for a god.

[Airyaman]

The best evidence for god, is god?

Well I'm convinced.

As In the best Evidence for Barack Obama is Barack Obama. Or are you so foolish to Argue this as well?

If we never saw Barack Obama and only heard what he had to say through Jay Carney, you might have a point.

[Captain Colostomy]

The best evidence for god, is god?

Well I'm convinced.

As In the best Evidence for Barack Obama is Barack Obama. Or are you so foolish to Argue this as well?

Oh, let's do.

[Minimalist]

As In the best Evidence for Barack Obama is Barack Obama. Or are you so foolish to Argue this as well?

Remember, we have his birth certificate, dummy.

[Heir Apparent]

I want to know from Christians how they can know for certain that they are not simply inventing a god in their imaginations.

How do you know for certain that they are simply inventing a god in their imaginations? As a rule of thumb if the god they believe looks literally like this.



Then that's most likely going to be the human imagination at work, it just looks like us. God as in the eternal creator beyond space and time that can't be depicted by the human imagination and has a relationship with his creatures that is experiential in nature goes beyond this form of idol worship.

The bolded statement is nonsensical. How can you possibly know that when you cannot measure beyond time? Where is your evidence of this claim? Not even the bible indicates this.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

When a believer begins a sentence with, 'Because God...' that is NOT evidence for God. It is evidence that the believer in question believes that invoking God is the same as an explanation.

I'd like to expand on the topic of faith just a smidge. Twain (referenced above) notes that 'Faith is believing what you know ain't so.' This is nearer the point than most people realize. Twain understood that if you know something, then you don't need faith. Lights come on when I flick switches. Trees are made of wood. You cannot get splinters from marshmallow fluff. These things are brute facts, faith is not required.

I can't help but think that the author of Hebrews 11 was being just a shade cynical when he wrote, 'Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen', and then goes on to provide us with the most ludicrous list of examples in faith the OT has to offer, a list of fairy tales and level of wrong-headedness which would make used car salesman blush with shame.

A common reaction to my rejection of faith as a path to knowledge is (to use one of the examples above), 'But you don't KNOW that a light will come on when you flick the switch.' Trite, but true - the bulb could be bad, or the breaker could have tripped, etc. But given the track record of millions of switch flips resulting in millions of activated light bulbs, to call this expectation 'faith' seems a bit strained. Now, if I were to flip a switch and expected gooseberry fool to come oozing out of the fixture, THAT would be an act of faith.

Faith is - simply put - a way to avoid thinking, in much the same way that prayer is a way to avoid effort.

Boru

[ThomM]

I have a question about faith for believers, and I continue to run into a brick wall. So evidently I am asking the wrong question.

I want to know from Christians how they can know for certain that they are not simply inventing a god in their imaginations. However, when I ask Christians this question, I get an answer that starts with "Because God..."

...

This still assumes a god. It's as if they cannot see that they are using their imaginations. If I said that I believe in Qhiapwe, Christians would tell me that Qhiapwe is not real. Then I'd say "Qhiapwe is the creator of everything, and Qhiapwe lives in my heart." Now I just made up that name, but you get my point.

How can I get this through to believers?

To believers: Can you consider the possibility that your beliefs are the result of you using a creative imagination?

YOU probably cannot - because you cannot PROVE your statement either.
YOU may be able to prove that the gods of religions - as defined by religions are NOT true - but that still leaves the possibility of a higher power sparking the big bang (No one knows) or a Deist style god that started evolution - but was otherwise NOT involved and is no longer involved.

Now - instead of claiming that gods are imagination - say that religion is imagination - and THAT you can prove. THere are factual errors in the beliefs of ALL ancient based religions.

As far as Xtians - I have found most of the worst offenders are older women - when it comes to the delusion. AND - most of them have never actually read the entire bible - and they will ignore quotes from the Old Testament as Cherry Picking. So - if YOU want to be ahead of them - you have to know the bible better than them.

MY favorite quote I get them to read is 1 Timothy 2 11-15 - from the new testament.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

So it is their belief that a woman should be in FULL submission to men - have NO authority over men - be quiet - and pregnant.

So - then tell them to shut up - and get pregnant. After all - it is THEIR belief - not yours

[Rahul]

Then one would ask for proof, or a way to prove qhiapwe. does your god have the means to 'proove' himself?

I've been asking proof from Christians for years and all I get is personal revelation and subscribing mundane events as divine interference.

[Waratah]

To believers: Can you consider the possibility that your beliefs are the result of you using a creative imagination?

Indeed I can, and have. How did I resolve it? I took up God's challenge outlined in Luke 11, and He provided the 'proof' I was looking for.

So did I drich and no holy spirit. Therefore it is not proof of god just your "creative imagination".

Just like you imagine it says in luke 11-5

"Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a neighbour, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Neighbour, lend me three loaves of bread;"

Just like you imagine it says in luke 11-13

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him, seek and knock!”

Just like you imagine that it says in luke 11 that repetitive asking is knocking.

[Ryantology]

If God is real then wouldn't the best evidence of God, be God? So why wouldn't "Because God..." be a viable answer?

The problem is we don't have a God presenting evidence for everybody to examine, and the only way we can get anything that you call evidence is to assume God exists and try talking to him until you convince yourself that you got an answer.

Would wanting proof of the president of the united states, be assuming proof of the president of the US, if you wrote a letter addressed to him, asking for a response?
What if he invited you to do so?

I don't have to accept the existence of the President on faith, nor do I need to A/S/K for an indeterminate length of time until I receive 'evidence' that he exists.

Then one would ask for proof, or a way to prove qhiapwe. does your god have the means to 'proove' himself?

Would you believe anybody who insisted that he does?

Indeed I can, and have. How did I resolve it? I took up God's challenge outlined in Luke 11, and He provided the 'proof' I was looking for.

You read something you wanted to believe, and it became true for you! If only the real world was as convenient.