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RE: Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.
October 31, 2014 at 7:53 pm (This post was last modified: October 31, 2014 at 7:55 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-and yet people here, very plainly, either allow for, communicated, or directly questioned their existence. Or hadn't you observed that, in this thread, in these posts? Wouldn't be the first time either. Offhand I can remember having that discussion thrice...lol.
Your observations don't seem to be very keen Huggy.
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RE: Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.
October 31, 2014 at 9:18 pm
(October 31, 2014 at 7:03 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(October 31, 2014 at 5:24 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Then you are just plain unobservant.
The very existence of Homer is questioned by scholars. And if he existed, it is certain that The Iliad and the Odyssey were oral tradition long before they were ever written down. http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/People/Homer/
Plato certainly existed. He is attested to by a variety of contemporary sources. His style is consistent and we can be pretty sure that the same man wrote his histories. But we don't have everything he wrote and we aren't sure that all of what is attributed to him was written by him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
We don't have contemporary sources for Herodotus, but he does write in the first person and much of what he observes can be verified. His writings are not taken as gospel proof of what he says though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus
Maybe i was unclear, when I made this statement..
Quote:It always seems that as it relates to the Bible, the guy who's name is on a particular book, never actually wrote it. why is this? This is never said about Plato, or Herodotus... strange
It was in reference to the members of this forum. If I were to post the writing of Plato here, no one would question if he existed, but according to Minimalist for example, the apostle Paul never existed, despite there being just as much evidence if not more, for Paul as there is Plato.
Well, Min can be rather extreme. And frankly there is legitimate question about the varacity of the Bible OT and NT. But I certainly would not assume Homer is a real person or that what he says in the Iliad is history anymore than the Tanakh is history. There is rather more evidence of Plato than Paul, really there is. He wrote himself, and his pupils, particularly Aristotle wrote about him. And the earliest extant copies of Plato's Dialogs date all the way back to the 800s, about 400 years before the first extant copies of any part of the OT.Dating the BiblePlato Pauls letters and the descriptions of him in Acts disagree. None the less, I'm sure Paul existed. You can make a better case for either Paul or John the Baptist than Jesus.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
RE: Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.
November 1, 2014 at 1:17 am
I cannot understand why this thread has gone on for so long, the original question is full of arrogance and ignorance, how do you answer a question like that without also being ignorant ?.
RE: Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.
November 3, 2014 at 11:39 pm
(November 1, 2014 at 1:17 am)psychoslice Wrote: I cannot understand why this thread has gone on for so long, the original question is full of arrogance and ignorance, how do you answer a question like that without also being ignorant ?.
Never underestimate the delusional.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
RE: Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.
November 3, 2014 at 11:46 pm
(November 1, 2014 at 1:17 am)psychoslice Wrote: I cannot understand why this thread has gone on for so long, the original question is full of arrogance and ignorance, how do you answer a question like that without also being ignorant ?.
The original question is nonsensical. That makes a great rorschach test. Carry on...
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
RE: Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.
November 3, 2014 at 11:52 pm
(November 3, 2014 at 11:46 pm)Alex K Wrote:
(November 1, 2014 at 1:17 am)psychoslice Wrote: I cannot understand why this thread has gone on for so long, the original question is full of arrogance and ignorance, how do you answer a question like that without also being ignorant ?.
The original question is nonsensical. That makes a great rorschach test. Carry on...
The misuse of thermal dynamics is what got him a well deserved ban.
Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.
November 6, 2014 at 6:00 am (This post was last modified: November 6, 2014 at 6:14 am by Rampant.A.I..)
(November 3, 2014 at 11:46 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(October 31, 2014 at 4:00 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: isn't that is whats claimed about Jesus? that he never existed and was just made up?
That's what some people claim. It isn't what I claim. And so what?
It is entirely likely that Jesus as known contemporarily, not unlike Paul Bunyan, is a conglomeration of oral traditions and tall tales about a surrogate penultimate lumberjack as told by lumberjacks.
It's also likely that Jesus was an actual historical dude who was incredibly charismatic, intelligent, and tapped in to the major themes of his day by invoking God as the source of his wisdom, and the weight behind his words.
Does it matter? Were it discovered tomorrow Plato invented Socrates as a vessel with authority to add weight to Plato's influence on western philosophy, would if matter?
Were it discovered tomorrow Jesus was an entirely made-up figure, based on a 30 AD Judaean man who was by most accounts, a homeless dropout of the rabbinical tradition who saw through the societal bullshit of the day so clearly, that 1,984 years later, there's a social movement dedicated to parsing the social changes and dogma built up around him?
What, exactly, is that, other than a God? That's close to 2,000 years of immortality.
Hypothetically, if there was a Jesus of Nazareth, who was just a guy, who happened to tap into the social construct most people refer to as "God," is there a meaningful difference between the Christian Dogma most atheists rail against and an omnipotent, omnipresent force?
Because that, to me, is a God, and is a surrogate for the social collective unconscious referred to as God; and by broad definition "A Son Of God."
So many atheists are focused on taking down the system that is already in place, in the pursuit of "Truth," that I fear the quality of the message is lost in translation.
You see through the societal BS. So do I. That's why we're discussing this on a forum.
But instead of rebuilding what someone like us started a long time ago, the focus is now on dismantling a system that's lasted 2000 years.
IF Jesus existed, he was just like you and I, and all the intelligent people who have come before us. He recognized a socio-religious system, and worked within it to enact real change.
If you, as atheists, want to effect the same change, you need to act within the same system to do so.
RE: Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.
November 7, 2014 at 3:17 am
(November 1, 2014 at 1:17 am)psychoslice Wrote: I cannot understand why this thread has gone on for so long, the original question is full of arrogance and ignorance, how do you answer a question like that without also being ignorant ?.
just get down on your knees and ask for forgiveness, then you will know.
Atheist Credo: An universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
And frankly there is legitimate question about the varacity of the Bible OT and NT. But I certainly would not assume Homer is a real person or that what he says in the Iliad is history anymore than the Tanakh is history. There is rather more evidence of Plato than Paul, really there is. He wrote himself, and his pupils, particularly Aristotle wrote about him. And the earliest extant copies of Plato's Dialogs date all the way back to the 800s, about 400 years before the first extant copies of any part of the OT.
