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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 4:50 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 4:40 pm)ronedee Wrote: LOL! Isn't this "the atheist argument"? "Invisible Sky Daddy"!
So, does it really matter what I say? Or anyone who "believes" for that matter?
I gave you my opinion, and personal insight to my belief..... and you give me what? More of the same...
Because you have no answer for the Holy Spirit! How could you? You haven't a clue how: He works, what He does, or where to look for Him.
When I look around here (metaphorically) all I see is a bunch of people with white canes and big, ugly dark glasses bumping into each other and cursing the darkness.....
And all you have to do is take off those big, ugly dark glasses!
Oh, you're right. How embarrassing of me! I don't have an answer to your invisible friend. I'm really just jealous of your relationship with Jesus, and I can't help but ridicule what I don't understand. 
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 4:53 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 4:40 pm)ronedee Wrote: And all you have to do is take off those big, ugly dark glasses!
I did back when I became an atheist.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 4:59 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 4:03 pm)Dionysius Wrote: Of course you're gonna have to disagree because your theological model can't contend with the facts of the Book.
To reiterate, make sure you comprehend this very important point: God acts first by removing his protection from Job? Why would God, pray tell do such a thing? So that Satan could attack him. Yes, key point being that it's Satan who attacks, as you note yourself.
Quote:Ergo, God put forth his hand to harm Job intentionally. There is no way you or any other apologist can worm their way around this textual fact. Please note: it was not Satan's idea to persecute poor old Job! God brought up the subject!
Not Satan's idea?
Job 1
9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 5:26 pm
(This post was last modified: November 4, 2013 at 5:27 pm by Tonus.)
(November 2, 2013 at 4:33 am)Lion IRC Wrote: The moral of the story of Job is this.
Once upon a time there was God and there was Job.
And they were happy.
The End.
WAIT!
...along comes shit-for-brains, anti-theist, God-hater, satan and he sticks his nose in where it isn't wanted. Everything was fine. But oh no! satan doesn't like happy bible folk. satan thinks humans don't need God. satan cant stand the fact that there is a Higher Authority. But he's too gutless to fight God.
And so he takes it out on a human being.
That's the strange part of that whole story. It really should have gone like this:
God: Have you seen my faithful servant Job? He's living it up like a boss!
Satan: Sure, because you protect him and reward him for serving you. Try this-- mess up his life really badly and see if he doesn't curse you!
God: Uhh... no, dimwit. The reason I protect and reward him is because he's my faithful servant. It'd be pretty stupid for me to punish him because you happen to be jealous.
Satan (thinking): Shit, this is going to be harder than I thought...
Why would god allow Satan to punish Job for being a good and faithful servant? If the idea was that following god would result in good things happening and rejecting god would result in suffering, god should have told Satan to kindly piss off and go bother someone who cared. But no, he allows Satan to draw him into a game of flaming darts with Job serving as the board. Then he rips Job a new asshole for having the sensible reaction of figuring that god would explain why he had allowed such horrors to be visited upon him.
God in the story of Job is portrayed as both gullible and a sadistic bully, which is a very scary combination when you think of it.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 5:30 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 4:59 pm)John V Wrote: (November 4, 2013 at 4:03 pm)Dionysius Wrote: Of course you're gonna have to disagree because your theological model can't contend with the facts of the Book.
To reiterate, make sure you comprehend this very important point: God acts first by removing his protection from Job? Why would God, pray tell do such a thing? So that Satan could attack him. Yes, key point being that it's Satan who attacks, as you note yourself.
Quote:Ergo, God put forth his hand to harm Job intentionally. There is no way you or any other apologist can worm their way around this textual fact. Please note: it was not Satan's idea to persecute poor old Job! God brought up the subject!
Not Satan's idea?
Job 1
9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
Are you bat shit stupid?
It was God that brought Job up, not satan. It was God's hand (Job 2:10;Job 19:21) that afflicted Job, satan was just a means to an end.
Smarten up McFly.
"This time the bullet cold rocked ya a yellow ribbon instead of a swastika?" -RATM
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 6:02 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 5:30 pm)Dionysius Wrote: Are you bat shit stupid? No. My IQ is 145.
Quote:It was God that brought Job up, not satan.
True. God brought up Job to boast about him. Satan brought up harming him. Your conclusion from this that it was God's idea is, well, bat-shit stupid.
Quote:It was God's hand (Job 2:10;Job 19:21) that afflicted Job, satan was just a means to an end.
Job is speaking in both of those passages, and the book says several times in the end that Job wasn't correct in all that he said:
Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 42
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 6:13 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 6:02 pm)John V Wrote: (November 4, 2013 at 5:30 pm)Dionysius Wrote: Are you bat shit stupid? No. My IQ is 145.
Because a higher IQ innoculates your views against stupidity?
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 6:13 pm
So god didn't know what satan was going to do?
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 6:27 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 6:02 pm)John V Wrote: (November 4, 2013 at 5:30 pm)Dionysius Wrote: Are you bat shit stupid? No. My IQ is 145.
Quote:It was God that brought Job up, not satan.
True. God brought up Job to boast about him. Satan brought up harming him. Your conclusion from this that it was God's idea is, well, bat-shit stupid.
Quote:It was God's hand (Job 2:10;Job 19:21) that afflicted Job, satan was just a means to an end.
Job is speaking in both of those passages, and the book says several times in the end that Job wasn't correct in all that he said:
Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 42
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Indeed it is Job speaking and in vs. 2:10 he confirms the same understanding found elsewhere in the text that it is God who is responsible for purposeful suffering and affliction, i.e. (Amos 3:6; Isa 45:7) To selectively attribute some of Job's statements to error would be to write an exegetical check your ass can't cash.
The bottom line is that the entire book is a metaphor which chronicles the methodology of achievement and the existential rewards of worldly disavowment.
"This time the bullet cold rocked ya a yellow ribbon instead of a swastika?" -RATM
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 6:47 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 5:30 pm)Dionysius Wrote: (November 4, 2013 at 4:59 pm)John V Wrote: Yes, key point being that it's Satan who attacks, as you note yourself.
Not Satan's idea?
Job 1
9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
Are you bat shit stupid?
It was God that brought Job up, not satan. It was God's hand (Job 2:10;Job 19:21) that afflicted Job, satan was just a means to an end.
Smarten up McFly.
Actually YOU are the one making yourself appear ignorant. It is satan who is the instigator of Jobs affliction.
Job 1:1
"In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil."
That is where the story starts and where it should end happily ever after.
But....
Enter satan. And at Job 2:3 we see that it is satan who tries to incite God against him to ruin him without any reason.
Job 2:3
"Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
Does God stretch out His hand to afflict Job?
No! It is satan who does so.
Naturally satan the gutless taunts God, baiting Him to afflict Job. (Verse 4)
But God doesn't fall for it and hence satan is denied the chance to blame the whole thing back on God when Job (rightly) contemplates what's going on. God clearly warns satan "... he is in your hands"
Read carefully. It is satan who afflicts Job.
Job 2:7
"So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head."
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