"The bible test" Answered.

[max-greece]

Jesus is talking about your physical heart.

Uh, no. not even close.

He shows in the quote that he has no understanding of medicine or the human body - or rather exactly the understanding that was prevalent at the time. Whilst he could be talking about a person's centre in much the same way we do that argument is totally undermined by "Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”[f] (Thus he declared all foods clean.) "

Now keep reading sport:
20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

So it is your opinion that Jesus said all of the above mentioned comes from your physical blood pump?
Because contextually to me Christ is refering to the secondary meaning to the word:centre of all physical and spiritual life
the vigour and sense of physical life
the centre and seat of spiritual life
the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours
of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence
of the will and character
of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions

I'm only going to respond to this one point as the rest are no longer worth it.

The point being made is that Jesus did not recognise the heart as being merely a blood pump. This is where he attributed thoughts, mind, soul, desires and so on to. In other words - there is a reason he never mentions the brain (anywhere) as he didn't know what function it served.

"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts...."

We might today euphemistically refer to the heart as the centre of passions and so on but we do not have thoughts, evil or otherwise, allocated there. Even when we do allocate emotions to the heart we do so in phrases that make it clear it is the brain that does the thinking - letting his heart rule his head, for example.

It is exactly this sort of biblical evidence that shows us that Jesus was not privy to any information that could not have come from the period. In other words - none of the knowledge a god should have.

Draw your own conclusions.....

---

There is an interesting summary of the perceived role of brain and heart throughout the ancient world at http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/1brain93.html

It specifically draws attention to biblical interpretations of the functions of the various parts of the body.

[Drich]

I see you have appealed to a red herring rather than address content. You stated that The NT says following the law was indeed possiable. Paul in Romans 7 clearly says it is not.. Why didn't you start here?

Because you don't know your facts, and this has been proved to you time and time again.

Then by all means, show me. Show me where 'your facts' invalidate the teaching of Paul in Romans 7. Otherwise understand inorder to hold to your doctrine you have to ignore the Teachings of Paul, and Christ to hide behind these elusive 'facts.'

That said, in all my time here I do not spend it correcting 'brothers in the faith' for two reason. One we are told not to do it publically. We are told to bring a matter of contention to them privatly. Two, I understand that not all 'eat meat.' Meaning not everyone has to be on the same page or understanding of God. We are only called to be responsiable for what we can comperhend. If your comperhension ties you to the Law, then know even if Paul and Christ give you the freedom to live apart from the law, that still means you have the freedom to live under the law as well. "For what you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and what you loose on earth will also be loosed in Heaven."
Meaning in your freedom if you tie yourself to the law of moses then in Heaven it is by the law of moses you will be judged. If in your freedom you wish to tie yourself down then you have freedom to do so.

---

Uh, no. not even close.


Now keep reading sport:
20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

So it is your opinion that Jesus said all of the above mentioned comes from your physical blood pump?
Because contextually to me Christ is refering to the secondary meaning to the word:centre of all physical and spiritual life
the vigour and sense of physical life
the centre and seat of spiritual life
the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours
of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence
of the will and character
of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions

I'm only going to respond to this one point as the rest are no longer worth it.

The point being made is that Jesus did not recognise the heart as being merely a blood pump. This is where he attributed thoughts, mind, soul, desires and so on to. In other words - there is a reason he never mentions the brain (anywhere) as he didn't know what function it served.

"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts...."

We might today euphemistically refer to the heart as the centre of passions and so on but we do not have thoughts, evil or otherwise, allocated there. Even when we do allocate emotions to the heart we do so in phrases that make it clear it is the brain that does the thinking - letting his heart rule his head, for example.

It is exactly this sort of biblical evidence that shows us that Jesus was not privy to any information that could not have come from the period. In other words - none of the knowledge a god should have.

Draw your own conclusions.....

---

There is an interesting summary of the perceived role of brain and heart throughout the ancient world at http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/1brain93.html

It specifically draws attention to biblical interpretations of the functions of the various parts of the body.

Not true. Christ make a very Clear distinction between Heart, Mind,(brain) Spirit (Soul in some translations) and Body when He was asked what was our Greatest Commandment. Which was: "You are to love your Lord God with all of your Heart"

as in:
centre of all physical and spiritual life
the vigour and sense of physical life
the centre and seat of spiritual life
the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours
of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence
of the will and character
of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions

Not blood pump, because how can you love with a blood pump? "Mind, Spirit and Strength."

Because Christ shows a clear understand between the seperation of Heart and mind in this passage it stands to reason that when He says 'heart' He is not speaking blood pump in yours.

[Ksa]

^ So, let me get this straight, you believe that Jesus is God and that the trinity is Father, Son, and holy spirit where there are 3 but the 3 are one?

[max-greece]

Because you don't know your facts, and this has been proved to you time and time again.

Then by all means, show me. Show me where 'your facts' invalidate the teaching of Paul in Romans 7. Otherwise understand inorder to hold to your doctrine you have to ignore the Teachings of Paul, and Christ to hide behind these elusive 'facts.'

That said, in all my time here I do not spend it correcting 'brothers in the faith' for two reason. One we are told not to do it publically. We are told to bring a matter of contention to them privatly. Two, I understand that not all 'eat meat.' Meaning not everyone has to be on the same page or understanding of God. We are only called to be responsiable for what we can comperhend. If your comperhension ties you to the Law, then know even if Paul and Christ give you the freedom to live apart from the law, that still means you have the freedom to live under the law as well. "For what you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and what you loose on earth will also be loosed in Heaven."
Meaning in your freedom if you tie yourself to the law of moses then in Heaven it is by the law of moses you will be judged. If in your freedom you wish to tie yourself down then you have freedom to do so.

---

I'm only going to respond to this one point as the rest are no longer worth it.

The point being made is that Jesus did not recognise the heart as being merely a blood pump. This is where he attributed thoughts, mind, soul, desires and so on to. In other words - there is a reason he never mentions the brain (anywhere) as he didn't know what function it served.

"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts...."

We might today euphemistically refer to the heart as the centre of passions and so on but we do not have thoughts, evil or otherwise, allocated there. Even when we do allocate emotions to the heart we do so in phrases that make it clear it is the brain that does the thinking - letting his heart rule his head, for example.

It is exactly this sort of biblical evidence that shows us that Jesus was not privy to any information that could not have come from the period. In other words - none of the knowledge a god should have.

Draw your own conclusions.....

---

There is an interesting summary of the perceived role of brain and heart throughout the ancient world at http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/1brain93.html

It specifically draws attention to biblical interpretations of the functions of the various parts of the body.

Not true. Christ make a very Clear distinction between Heart, Mind,(brain) Spirit (Soul in some translations) and Body when He was asked what was our Greatest Commandment. Which was: "You are to love your Lord God with all of your Heart"

as in:
centre of all physical and spiritual life
the vigour and sense of physical life
the centre and seat of spiritual life
the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours
of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence
of the will and character
of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions

Not blood pump, because how can you love with a blood pump? "Mind, Spirit and Strength."

Because Christ shows a clear understand between the seperation of Heart and mind in this passage it stands to reason that when He says 'heart' He is not speaking blood pump in yours.

Close but no banana. I don't recognise where the quote comes from so I am looking forward to a chapter and verse on it.

In the meantime Jesus is showing that the heart and the mind are separate in the same way that we might show the mind and the brain are separate. In other words there is nothing in the above that shows that Jesus understands that the mind is located in the Brain rather than in say, the kidneys, heart, liver or anywhere else.

You are assuming Jesus sees the heart as what we know it to be today - a blood pump - there is simply no evidence for this.

All indications, from the text in Mark, are that Jesus locates the mind in the heart.

[Drich]

^ So, let me get this straight, you believe that Jesus is God and that the trinity is Father, Son, and holy spirit where there are 3 but the 3 are one?

Ah, no.

I believe God is a title and not a name. As in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 3 deities one God.

This principle works in our world as well. In the United states there is only one governing authority over everything, but within this goverment there are three branches. The executive (The office president) The Legislative (Congress/The house) The judicial (The Courts)

---

Then by all means, show me. Show me where 'your facts' invalidate the teaching of Paul in Romans 7. Otherwise understand inorder to hold to your doctrine you have to ignore the Teachings of Paul, and Christ to hide behind these elusive 'facts.'

That said, in all my time here I do not spend it correcting 'brothers in the faith' for two reason. One we are told not to do it publically. We are told to bring a matter of contention to them privatly. Two, I understand that not all 'eat meat.' Meaning not everyone has to be on the same page or understanding of God. We are only called to be responsiable for what we can comperhend. If your comperhension ties you to the Law, then know even if Paul and Christ give you the freedom to live apart from the law, that still means you have the freedom to live under the law as well. "For what you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and what you loose on earth will also be loosed in Heaven."
Meaning in your freedom if you tie yourself to the law of moses then in Heaven it is by the law of moses you will be judged. If in your freedom you wish to tie yourself down then you have freedom to do so.

---

Not true. Christ make a very Clear distinction between Heart, Mind,(brain) Spirit (Soul in some translations) and Body when He was asked what was our Greatest Commandment. Which was: "You are to love your Lord God with all of your Heart"

as in:
centre of all physical and spiritual life
the vigour and sense of physical life
the centre and seat of spiritual life
the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours
of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence
of the will and character
of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions

Not blood pump, because how can you love with a blood pump? "Mind, Spirit and Strength."

Because Christ shows a clear understand between the seperation of Heart and mind in this passage it stands to reason that when He says 'heart' He is not speaking blood pump in yours.

Close but no banana. I don't recognise where the quote comes from so I am looking forward to a chapter and verse on it.

In the meantime Jesus is showing that the heart and the mind are separate in the same way that we might show the mind and the brain are separate. In other words there is nothing in the above that shows that Jesus understands that the mind is located in the Brain rather than in say, the kidneys, heart, liver or anywhere else.

You are assuming Jesus sees the heart as what we know it to be today - a blood pump - there is simply no evidence for this.

All indications, from the text in Mark, are that Jesus locates the mind in the heart.

keep looking, and when you find what you are looking for i will take that passage and give you the greek words and the definations of those words that support my arguement. (already looked all of this stuff up)

[Ksa]

^ So, let me get this straight, you believe that Jesus is God and that the trinity is Father, Son, and holy spirit where there are 3 but the 3 are one?

Ah, no.

I believe God is a title and not a name. As in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 3 deities one God.

This principle works in our world as well. In the United states there is only one governing authority over everything, but within this goverment there are three branches. The executive (The office president) The Legislative (Congress/The house) The judicial (The Courts)

Exactly. Where is this mentioned in the Bible? I am an atheist but, I keep an open mind, so if you can produce a single unequivocal statement from the Bible where Jesus himself says "I am God" or where he says "worship me" I'm ready to embrace Christianity.

[Drich]

Ah, no.

I believe God is a title and not a name. As in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 3 deities one God.

This principle works in our world as well. In the United states there is only one governing authority over everything, but within this goverment there are three branches. The executive (The office president) The Legislative (Congress/The house) The judicial (The Courts)

Exactly. Where is this mentioned in the Bible? I am an atheist but, I keep an open mind, so if you can produce a single unequivocal statement from the Bible where Jesus himself says "I am God" or where he says "worship me" I'm ready to embrace Christianity.

Promise?

---

This all comes from John 10:
30 The Father and I are one.”

31 Again the Jews there picked up stones to kill Jesus. 32 But he said to them, “The many wonderful things you have seen me do are from the Father. Which of these good things are you killing me for?”

33 They answered, “We are not killing you for any good thing you did. But you say things that insult God. You are only a man, but you say you are the same as God! That is why we are trying to kill you!”

(The Jews sure though Jesus just claimed to be God, to the point of not needing a trial or any discussion like they did when they finally put him to death.)

36 So why do you accuse me of insulting God for saying, ‘I am God’s Son’? I am the one God chose and sent into the world. 37 If I don’t do what my Father does, then don’t believe what I say. 38 But if I do what my Father does, you should believe in what I do. You might not believe in me, but you should believe in the things I do. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Meaning Christ and The Father are the Same/Both are God.

---

So you got your sunday cloths pick out yet? or will you try and back out of what you said?

[xpastor]

Ah, no.

I believe God is a title and not a name. As in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 3 deities one God.

This principle works in our world as well. In the United states there is only one governing authority over everything, but within this goverment there are three branches. The executive (The office president) The Legislative (Congress/The house) The judicial (The Courts)

Exactly. Where is this mentioned in the Bible? I am an atheist but, I keep an open mind, so if you can produce a single unequivocal statement from the Bible where Jesus himself says "I am God" or where he says "worship me" I'm ready to embrace Christianity.

Sorry, but speaking as one atheist to another, that is a rash statement Ksa. I certainly believe that the historical Jesus never uttered such a claim, but the gospel writers decades after his death put words in his mouth, especially the gospel attributed to John, e.g., "I and my father are one."

[Drich]

oh, and the worship me bit. Do you know what Jesus said God's greatest command for us is? To Love the Lord your God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit/Soul, and Strength.

If Jesus and the Father are one, and the Jews confirm this means Jesus is saying He is God, this means we are to Love Jesus with all of our Being as well. Meaning we are to Worship Jesus as we would the Father.

---

Exactly. Where is this mentioned in the Bible? I am an atheist but, I keep an open mind, so if you can produce a single unequivocal statement from the Bible where Jesus himself says "I am God" or where he says "worship me" I'm ready to embrace Christianity.

Sorry, but speaking as one atheist to another, that is a rash statement Ksa. I certainly believe that the historical Jesus never uttered such a claim, but the gospel writers decades after his death put words in his mouth, especially the gospel attributed to John, e.g., "I and my father are one."

Proof? or are you expressing your ablity for great faith in the unknown/unknowable?

[max-greece]

Close but no banana. I don't recognise where the quote comes from so I am looking forward to a chapter and verse on it.

In the meantime Jesus is showing that the heart and the mind are separate in the same way that we might show the mind and the brain are separate. In other words there is nothing in the above that shows that Jesus understands that the mind is located in the Brain rather than in say, the kidneys, heart, liver or anywhere else.

You are assuming Jesus sees the heart as what we know it to be today - a blood pump - there is simply no evidence for this.

All indications, from the text in Mark, are that Jesus locates the mind in the heart.

keep looking, and when you find what you are looking for i will take that passage and give you the greek words and the definations of those words that support my arguement. (already looked all of this stuff up)

Am I still looking? I think I have found what I needed to find. Are there other instances demonstrating Jesus' lack of knowledge of our biology? There probably are but I only needed the one.

Jesus never mentions the brain. This is not surprising to me as none of the surrounding cultures understood its function (although various ancient Greeks had postulated it - including Socrates). The Egyptians, for example, during their mummification process carefully preserved all the organs of the body except the brain which they pulled out through the nose and discarded.

There are certainly other references in stories of Jesus miracles which would appear to be recognisable medical conditions which are "cured" by casting out a demon. I recall one boy being brought to Jesus with a bad case of epilepsy which fits the case exactly.