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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 6:41 pm
(December 11, 2013 at 6:34 pm)ThomM Wrote: Actually Jesus did claim divinity in john 10 when He said I and my Father are one.
Actually - that is not true - in the least - and is a direct problem of a translated text - failing to account for idioms of the original language.
In the terms of the languages of the supposed time of the christ - and many also today - when Caesar said that he was ONE with the Roman senate - it meant that he agreed with them. It is a common idiom for agreement - used in many languages to this day. Certainly Caesar did not mean that he and the roman senate were the same person!!!!! You can find the use of this idiom in lots of texts from all over the earth.
You rarely find your claim in countries that still use the idiom - and YOU can verify the Idiom in the many on line idiom dictionaries.
In fact - the mythology of the christ always refers to the father as another - and the father refers to the son as another as well. And the claim that they were the same person begs the question - why did the christ - on the cross - refer to his father - "Why have YOU forsaken me? - when if they were the same person - he should have said - why have I forsaken myself!!!!
[/quote]
Im supposing Greece still uses it as they are eastern orthodox?
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 6:45 pm
^ That is a good example with the crucifixion haha! I also told him about the language but he wouldn't listen.
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 6:47 pm
(December 11, 2013 at 6:45 pm)Ksa Wrote: ^ That is a good example with the crucifixion haha! I also told him about the language but he wouldn't listen.
Arguinbg with drich is literally like arguing with a wall.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 6:55 pm
(December 11, 2013 at 6:34 pm)ThomM Wrote: Quote:Actually Jesus did claim divinity in john 10 when He said I and my Father are one.
Actually - that is not true - in the least - and is a direct problem of a translated text - failing to account for idioms of the original language.
In the terms of the languages of the supposed time of the christ - and many also today - when Caesar said that he was ONE with the Roman senate - it meant that he agreed with them. It is a common idiom for agreement - used in many languages to this day. Certainly Caesar did not mean that he and the roman senate were the same person!!!!! You can find the use of this idiom in lots of texts from all over the earth.
You rarely find your claim in countries that still use the idiom - and YOU can verify the Idiom in the many on line idiom dictionaries.
In fact - the mythology of the christ always refers to the father as another - and the father refers to the son as another as well. And the claim that they were the same person begs the question - why did the christ - on the cross - refer to his father - "Why have YOU forsaken me? - when if they were the same person - he should have said - why have I forsaken myself!!!! Good point about the idiom—I am one with = I am in agreement with.
I don't think Jesus the man really claimed to be God or even claimed to be the apocalyptic figure of the Son of Man, who would supposedly come to judge the world.
However, John's gospel certainly makes claims for his divinity, in the prologue if nowhere else.
Quote:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
Of course the majority scholarly opinion is that this was written about 65 years after Jesus; death by we know not whom.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people — House
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 6:59 pm
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2013 at 7:02 pm by Ksa.)
The phrase
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us."
Is plagiarism from Greek texts, not even translated properly! The proper translation would be "Gods" with an "s". It has no religious value, I can tell you where it comes from on request but won't detail on it here so I don't further derail the topic.
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 7:22 pm
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2013 at 7:35 pm by ThomM.)
(December 11, 2013 at 6:41 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: (December 11, 2013 at 6:34 pm)ThomM Wrote: Actually Jesus did claim divinity in john 10 when He said I and my Father are one.
Actually - that is not true - in the least - and is a direct problem of a translated text - failing to account for idioms of the original language.
In the terms of the languages of the supposed time of the christ - and many also today - when Caesar said that he was ONE with the Roman senate - it meant that he agreed with them. It is a common idiom for agreement - used in many languages to this day. Certainly Caesar did not mean that he and the roman senate were the same person!!!!! You can find the use of this idiom in lots of texts from all over the earth.
You rarely find your claim in countries that still use the idiom - and YOU can verify the Idiom in the many on line idiom dictionaries.
In fact - the mythology of the christ always refers to the father as another - and the father refers to the son as another as well. And the claim that they were the same person begs the question - why did the christ - on the cross - refer to his father - "Why have YOU forsaken me? - when if they were the same person - he should have said - why have I forsaken myself!!!!
Im supposing Greece still uses it as they are eastern orthodox?
[/quote]
It is even used in Germany - as well as many eastern European countries - as well as those north african countries where it is still used.
(December 11, 2013 at 6:45 pm)Ksa Wrote: ^ That is a good example with the crucifixion haha! I also told him about the language but he wouldn't listen.
Again - this is an example of how theists often "spin" text to claim it means something other than what is actually stated. However - it this case - this is basically an English speakers error - you do not find this elsewhere in the non-english speaking xtian world - where they use the idiom themselves.
Xtianity has always been a "cafeteria" religion - with tens of thousands of sects believing and spinning things differently. I myself have always wondered about the Myth of Abraham and Isaac - since the bible claims that the god does not tempt anyone to do evil.
Since Isaac did nothing to deserve to be killed - asking for his life was actually asking Abraham to murder his son - and therefore was the words of the devil - not a god.
And Abraham - in any case - should have refused do commit murder - and would have been right to do so.
However - as I pointed out - the Bible Test did not say it reflected the entire bible - it simply asked what was actually in it - just 50 things. And in actuality - the answers are horrific . IT makes no sense to me to follow a god that at one time tells you to stone to death your disobedient son - regardless of what the overall message of the bible is supposed to be - especially since even xtians do not agree on that as well.
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 9:57 pm
(December 11, 2013 at 5:11 pm)Drich Wrote: so again, what is a lie? It is a unauthorized deception. Can God lie? no. why? Because every deception is authorized.  Hehe. Well it's just deception. It simply had never occurred to me that god would lie, so that was an interesting discovery there. I think it is a bit redundant that god would say "if I swear an oath then it's guaranteed." By his admission, his actions must promote his purpose (or his will, I suppose). Therefore if god mislead a person in order to further his plans for humanity, it would be in keeping with his will, and if his will is for the greater good then the lie is defensible (in the same way as a person lying to protect an innocent, we can say).
It does reinforce the idea that any particular action is not, in and of itself, moral or immoral. I think that context is probably the best guide for what makes an action moral or not. For some actions it may not be easy (or even possible?) to find a context that makes it moral, and I am sure that there are people who can commit some pretty horrible acts with the full confidence that what they are doing is good. I know that many theists abhor moral ambiguity (I sure did when I was a believer) but it seems that there is very little that is unambiguous about morality.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 11:21 pm
(December 11, 2013 at 5:29 pm)Ksa Wrote: (December 11, 2013 at 5:21 pm)Drich Wrote: Sorry no. Even if Christians had a problem with understanding what Jesus Meant the Jews did not. Christ clearly asks them in Chapter 10 why do you seek to kill me, they said because you claim to be God.
The arguement is over sport, you lost. maybe you can bait another question and have better luck with that one  If you decide to I ask that you start your own thread rather than hijack mine, oh and welcome to AF
The Jews had a problem with everything about Jesus! Have you read your Bible? Jesus calling them a wicked and adulterous generation...fools...SNAKES! Would you like someone addressing you like that? And the Jews were not a people to forget in a hurry, so they surround him and try to make up pretty much any bs story about him so they can give him a good bashing!
Do you follow the Jews or do you follow Jesus Christ? The Jews could have said he's Satan, would you have believed them? The Jews HATED Jesus. Jesus never claimed divinity so don't come say what the Jews said. Convert to Judaism if you care about that too much.
In the verse after that Jesus answers them "YEE ARE GODS", saying why are you trying to find fault with me when others are called Gods. Would God have said that? Would God have said I am God but so is everyone else? Unless he said: He is not God!
Every time the Jews called Jesus God, Jesus called them names and portrayed them as a lost generation. You think that by following the Jews' example and calling Jesus God, Jesus will give you a tap on the back and say good job? The Jews called him God in the Bible and Jesus told them away from me you evil doers! I DON'T KNOW YOU!
Jesus doesn't know you.
Matthew 7:22:
"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"
Matthew 7:23:
"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
If you address Jesus as God, He doesn't know you! What more do you require as proof that he never claimed divinity?
Do you want to end up before the Kingdom of Heaven and have Jesus tell you he never knew you, depart from me you evildoer!?!? You want that to happen to you?
Sorry ska, this whole mess (your post) is one big red herring and you know it.
Christ said He and the Father are one, the Jew picked up stones to kill Him. Jesus asked why they were trying to Kill Him? They said because you claimed to be God!
You asked for context of John 10 I gave you the correct context of John 10. Now your argument runs from the context of John 10 to mat 7 to try distract from your failed exegesis of John 10.
I have answer every question you posted here concerning the content of John 10 in post 84.
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 11, 2013 at 11:41 pm
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2013 at 11:46 pm by Ksa.)
So you say like the Jews, that he is God. Are you picking up stones to stone him too? lol
Why do you not follow Jesus Christ? If you say he's God, like the Jews did, you follow the Jews not him! In fact, you mock him, just like the Jews who apparently crucified him.
Jesus never claimed divinity, in fact, he says in
John chapter 10 verse 29 "my father is greater than all",
John chapter 14 verse 28 "My father is greater than I",
Luke chapter 11 verse 20 "I with the finger of God cast out devils",
Matthew chapter 12 verse 28 "I cast out devils with the spirit of God",
John, chapter 5 verse 30, "I by myself can do NOTHING".
He is one with God in PURPOSE. Both want the same thing. They are united in will and wants. You quoted one verse where he ambiguously seems to say he's God, I quoted 2352352 verses where he for sure says he's NOT God.
Learn my friend 
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RE: "The bible test" Answered.
December 12, 2013 at 10:53 am
(This post was last modified: December 12, 2013 at 10:53 am by Drich.)
(December 11, 2013 at 6:55 pm)xpastor Wrote: Good point about the idiom—I am one with = I am in agreement with.
I don't think Jesus the man really claimed to be God or even claimed to be the apocalyptic figure of the Son of Man, who would supposedly come to judge the world. If this were an idiom then why did the Jew move to kill Him? When He Asked the Jews why are you trying to stone me, they said you claimed to be God.
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