Why do so many People Hate Zionism?

[Autumnlicious]

Let's play substitution and see if we try any other group how bigoted it sounds.

First, the easiest:

The Indians Jews have been marginalized and slaughtered by their neighbors for millennia. If they want one solitary country to reside in where they are not the minority for once, I'm all for it. If they don't want to take shit from anyone anymore instead of being led to the slaughter yet again I applaud them. If they happen to kill some Texans Muslims while defending themselves I'm not going to shed any tears. In fact I may donate some ammo.

Let's be more gritty.

Let's remember the Atlantic Slave Trade, done by both Black, Arab and White merchants.

The Blacks Jews have been marginalized and slaughtered by their neighbors for millennia. If they want one solitary country to reside in where they are not the minority for once, I'm all for it. If they don't want to take shit from anyone anymore instead of being led to the slaughter yet again I applaud them. If they happen to kill some Whites Muslims while defending themselves I'm not going to shed any tears. In fact I may donate some ammo.

Were you to applaud the deaths of any "race" (such a slippery term) based solely upon their identification (and not, say, criminal actions), you're using the same hatred that justified the Holocaust.

Physician, heal thyself!

[Autumnlicious]

Israel is not a theocracy! It is both de jure & de facto secular. Gays have more rights in Israel than any other Middle Eastern country; yet the Torah calls for them to be killed. Many of Israel's leaders have been atheists (when the Torah calls for the killing of non-believers), including Israel's great Iron Lady; Golda Meir (who just happens to appear on the money). The Torah says a woman may never have authority over a man; and yet Israel has had many women leaders. Is this theocracy?

If I recall, the Hasidic Jews have attempted to change the laws of Israel, more than once I may add.

They have thrown riots over women being allowed to select their own seat in a bus.

They have been key players in instigating Jew-on-Arab violence.

A little bit of how Hamas has been key in instigating Arab-on-Jew violence.

Your blindness is showing.

Just because you're better than the other neighboring shithole countries doesn't make you immune to criticism.

No, the Indians have been horribly mistreated, but 6 million of them haven't been killed.

Oh, so an arbitrarily large number of people gives you greater right to violate the rights of others?

With the Native Americans, it was ethnic cleansing that often bled into genocide.

Your favoritism is showing again.

REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide

On September 8, 2000, the head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) formally apologized for the agency's participation in the "ethnic cleansing" of Western tribes.

And Islam isn't a race, it is a totalitarian ideology.

So is Judaism.

Does that give us full right to murder the Jews again?

Choose your words carefully, supremecist, lest your tongue cut your own throat in slicing at others.

The sword of Damocles hangs heavy over those who revel in power over others.

There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.

Jordan and other Arab states forcefully deported and engaged in ethnic cleansing to move their "Palestinian" populations towards the region known as "Palestine" which had an existing population currently designated as "Palestinian".

Congratulations -- you had a minor problem and got shoved an entire population that the Arabs didn't want.

Seems like both the Jew's and Palestinians have a lot more in common.

Shame you'd both rather ethnically cleanse and genocide each other.

Savages.

[Ryantology]

Not only is the claim to that land expired worse than a gallon of milk from 1927, but Jews have many, many options if they want to live in a place that will be friendly to them. Anti-semitism isn't what it used to be throughout the western world, to say the very least. But, they do have that land now and that's that. Thing is, it's not up to me, or my country, to make sure they keep it.

[Raven]

MarxRaptor: I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Israel is indeed possessed of many characteristics of a religious state.

Consider the following:

From the Jewish Daily Forward:

It is becoming increasingly obvious that a break between Israel and Diaspora Jewry, particularly its American variety, is fast approaching. The reason for this is that Israel is slowly but inexorably turning into a conservative theocracy while the Diaspora is largely dedicated to liberal democracy.

The strategy of the “pro-Israel” camp among American Jewish organizations and neoconservative pundits has been, so far, one of avoidance of unpleasant facts coupled with unpleasant insinuations about the loyalties of those who insist on taking them seriously. But denial can work in only the short term, and only with an American Jewish population that identifies closely with Israel and relates all threats back to the Holocaust. These conditions, like the generation that sustained them, are not long for this world. Once this aging constituency is gone, the truth will prove unavoidable and it will be too late to deny it any longer.

Link to article:
http://forward.com/articles/147521/israe...theocracy/

You can split hairs about it all you want, but the disproportional influence of the ultra-Orthodox factions is indeed there.
MJ Rosenberg observes:

It turns out that President Shimon Peres will not be attending the Olympics because he would have to travel on the Shabbat. Peres is not religious, not kosher and enjoys a nice pork rib almost as much as Ariel Sharon did. Israel has never had a religious prime minister, including Menachem Begin who liked to play at looking religious without being observant.

So why the pretense? Because this is how Israel has evolved due to the stranglehold religious parties have on government. This is not going to change either because the condom-free Orthodox population will keep growing by leaps and bounds while secular Israelis will keep their families at a reasonable size.

Peres’ hypocrisy, shared by the ultra-secular Prime Minister Netanyahu, explains why Palestinians are ready to recognize Israel but not “as a Jewish state.” After all, how can Arabs inside Israel ever expect to be full citizens in a state that enshrines Judaism in much the same way Iran enshrines Islam.

After all, what Jew would want to live in America if it was defined as a “Christian state?”

The hypocrisy of Peres, who calls himself a socialist, also is a reminder of why the Christian Right here is so horrifying. Imagine if a U.S. President had to observe the Sabbath, and could not travel or work on Sunday. Imagine if he invoked Jesus to pander to an ultra-religious minority. Imagine if such issues as evolution, homosexuality, and abortion were decided not on the constitutional merits but because of the inordinate clout of fanatics.

Imagine if Santorum was president.

The good news is that, thanks to our Constitution, it is not as easy to ram religion down everyone’s throat here as in Israel or Iran.

Poor Peres. I’m sure he is pretty depressed knowing he will miss the games and all the delicious unkosher food he loves so much.

Such is life in a theocracy. Theodor Herzl, who didn’t even have his son circumcised, is spinning. (Herzl is way too secular even for me).

The Israel I love is the Israel of the kibbutz, of the socialist pioneers who built the state (the right built exactly nothing), the people like Ben Gurion, Rabin, and Golda Meir who thought that religious Orthodoxy of any kind is bunk.

Actually, Peres is one of those guys. But, unlike them, his middle name is hypocrisy.

For the record: the old socialists were not very enlightened on the Palestinian issue. In fact, some of them were quite terrible. But that is for another day.

Link:
http://mjayrosenberg.com/2012/07/10/isra...theocracy/
From Haaretz:

The storm over remarks made by Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman is in many respects a tempest in a teapot, which has for a long time taken on holier aspects than it seems. Neeman wants Torah law, or in other words, he wants Israel to be a country governed by Jewish religious law, halakha. In any event, Israel is already a semi-theocracy. The Israelis who were frightened by the minister's remarks and who love viewing their country as liberal, Western and secular are forgetting that our life here is more religious, traditional and halakhic than we are prepared to admit.

Between Stockholm and Tehran, Israel of 2009 is much closer to Tehran. From birth to death, from circumcision to funeral, from the establishment of the state to the establishment of the last of the illegal outposts in the West Bank - we are operating in the shadow of the commandments of religion. We should be honest with ourselves and admit it already: The country is too religious. Neeman just wanted to take this one step further, something one can and must come out against; but the religious-nationalist campaign began a long time ago, and it is still going strong.

It begins, of course, with the fact of our presence here. Among other things, it is based on theological reasoning. Abraham the Patriarch was here, so we are, too. He bought the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, so we, too, are in Palestinian Hebron. People who are entirely secular also cite religious and biblical explanations for the connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel. We can't even say whether Judaism is a religion or a nationality - and in any event, there is no other country in the Western world where religion has its holy iron grip on the state as it does in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opi...acy-1.2438


Are three enough, or do you require even more? It's not like they aren't there.

[max-greece]

"No, the Indians have been horribly mistreated, but 6 million of them haven't been killed. And Islam isn't a race, it is a totalitarian ideology."

Actually it rather depends on who you read as to how many Native Americans were systematically exterminated over a 100 year period. Most numbers are considerably in excess of the 6 million.

This is not the way to justify Zionism or Israel.

[EgoRaptor]

Anti-semitism isn't what it used to be throughout the western world, to say the very least.

Actually so many people being "anti-Zionist" (read: antisemitism) proves that antisemitism is alive and well through the Western World.

Also, Islam is not a race. Yes, Judaism is also a totalitarian ideology; which is why it is good that Israel has historically been led by atheists who hated Judaism. David Ben-Gurion (one of the fathers of Israel) was described by a Judaist as "to have hated Judaism more than any other man he had met." The Jews are united by secular culture more than religion. Anyone who tosses around words like racism to silence dissent from the agenda of Islamification is an Islamofascist.

If Israel is such a theocracy, I would love to hear your explanation for how a man who hated Judaism became leader.

[Autumnlicious]

Anti-semitism isn't what it used to be throughout the western world, to say the very least.

Actually so many people being "anti-Zionist" (read: antisemitism) proves that antisemitism is alive and well through the Western World.

anti-semitism != anti-zionism.

Wikipedia on Antisemitism:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite". It is a form of racism.

REF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Wikipedia on Antizionism:

Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism, a nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in the territory defined as the Land of Israel.[1] As a consequence, it also refers to opposition to some policies or characteristics of the State of Israel and sometimes even to the very existence of the State of Israel.

REF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antizionism

Your claim is factually incorrect.

Also, Islam is not a race.

Yes it is, you dumbshit!

By the definitions of "race" that I cited earlier, adherence to Islam qualifies it as a race!

Why don't you bother citing something instead of playing weasel words, you coward.

Yes, Judaism is also a totalitarian ideology; which is why it is good that Israel has historically been led by atheists who hated ...

Let me cut off your irrelevant diatribe into Judaism.

No one said Judaism is Zionism.

Zionism is categorically NOT Judaism.

Anyone who tosses around words like racism to silence dissent from the agenda of Islamification is an Islamofascist.

Irrelevant.

You have made a thought terminating cliche, indulged in poisoning the well, etc, etc,.

If Israel is such a theocracy, I would love to hear your explanation for how a man who hated Judaism became leader.

If Iran is such a theocracy, I would love to hear your explanation for how the Shah who hated Islam became leader.

See how irrelevant such statements are?

Nothing precludes a nation from favouring religious or ethnic groups.

[Raven]

MarxRaptor wrote:

Actually so many people being "anti-Zionist" (read: antisemitism) proves that antisemitism is alive and well through the Western World.

From The OED:
Anti-Semitismnoun)hostility to or prejudice against the Jews.

Anti-Zionismnoun) opposition to Zionism.

THE GREAT GULF BETWEEN ZIONISM AND JUDAISM

Paper delivered by G. J. Neuberger a member of Neturei Karta at the Tripoli Conference on Zionism and Racism

Where the Torah tells about the creation of the first human being, the most prominent Jewish commentator, Rashi, explains that the earth from which Adam was formed was not taken from one spot but from various parts of the globe. Thus human dignity does not depend on the place of one's birth nor is it limited to one region. The greatness or worth of a person is not measured by his or her outward appearance. Jews believe that Adam was created in G-d's image and that he is the common ancestor of all mankind. At this stage in human history, there is no room for privileged people who can do with others as they please. Human life is sacred and human rights are not to be denied by those who would subvert them for "national security" or for any other reason. No one knows this better than the Jews, who have been second-class citizens so often and for so long. Zionists, however, may differ. This is understandable because Judaism and Zionism are by no means the same. Indeed they are incompatible and irreconcilable: If one is a good Jew, one cannot be a Zionist; if one is a Zionist, one cannot be a good Jew.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/greatgulf.cfm

The above is taken from an Orthodox Jewish site. If Zionism is equal to anti-semitism, how do you explain them? These are people who place a high value on being Jewish, and feel that Zionism and Judaism is incompatible with being a good Jew.

But they are only one faction. Like any large community, there are factions galore.

One thing I've noticed is you really enjoy slinging names around at people, calling them all kinds of negative things. You've yet to say anything of any true substance, as you are too busy pontificating and accusing everyone. I can only guess from that you've no desire to be taken seriously by anyone here.

[EgoRaptor]

Anyone who tosses around words like racism to silence dissent from the agenda of Islamification is an Islamofascist.

Irrelevant.

You have made a thought terminating cliche, indulged in poisoning the well, etc, etc,.

If Israel is such a theocracy, I would love to hear your explanation for how a man who hated Judaism became leader.

If Iran is such a theocracy, I would love to hear your explanation for how the Shah who hated Islam became leader.

See how irrelevant such statements are?

Nothing precludes a nation from favouring religious or ethnic groups.

Where is your evidence that the Shaw hated Islam. I have a quote from Yeshayahu Leibowitz showing that one of Israel's fathers hated Judaism.

A religion is not the same as a race, otherwise all anti-theists would be racists. I am not a racist. I could perhaps be described as a cultural supremacist, but not a racist.

---

Irrelevant.

You have made a thought terminating cliche, indulged in poisoning the well, etc, etc,.


If Iran is such a theocracy, I would love to hear your explanation for how the Shah who hated Islam became leader.

See how irrelevant such statements are?

Nothing precludes a nation from favouring religious or ethnic groups.

Where is your evidence that the Shaw hated Islam. I have a quote from Yeshayahu Leibowitz showing that one of Israel's fathers hated Judaism.

A religion is not the same as a race, otherwise all anti-theists would be racists. I am not a racist. I could perhaps be described as a cultural supremacist, but not a racist.

[EgoRaptor]

This merely proves the antisemitism of modern culture. I dare to speak out in defence of the Jews & look what happens!