Pro abortion or not

[Tonus]

If you got raped, you should've been more careful. (Not justifying it by any means.)

But that is a justification. The only "if" that should be applied to rape is "if some asshole had not decided to commit rape." Most rapes do not occur because a woman wandered into a dark alley drunk and wearing a short skirt.

[Esquilax]

If you got raped, you should've been more careful. (Not justifying it by any means.)

I'll hold back the torrent of white hot rage this sentence evokes in me to ask you a simple question that might clear this up: can you produce a single other crime for which you would consider the above an adequate response to someone seeking help with the consequences of that crime?

If the answer is no, then why are you making a special exemption for rape, where that's suddenly the victim's fault? Other than that it suits your ill conceived, emotionally-based argument, that is?

No doubt you'll make some comment about how women should take proper precautions to avoid it: my response to this is two fold. One, you made a blanket statement about all rape, so you're speaking without actually knowing what precautions were taken in a given situation; you literally don't know how "careful" any given rape victim has been, and yet you've somehow decided they weren't careful enough. Two, given that statistically, rape is more likely to happen with someone the victim knows and trusts, that child rape and date rape are things, and that it's impossible to accurately predict when a crime will be committed against your person, how exactly would you suggest someone be "careful" to a standard you'd accept?

Now, I'm aware you haven't thought this through enough that you actually have cogent answers on hand for any of this, but I look forward to how you'll retrofit them in. You might notice that I'm being rather standoffish here. There's a reason for that; I've seen too many dear friends and loved ones getting hurt by rape to give any quarter to flippant, victim blaming bullshit.

Especially when their next paragraph contains the phrase:

Luckily, I have empathy

Don't make me fucking laugh.

Because I 1. Have empathy. 2. Am not a bloodthirsty killer.

And this here is a perfect example of how atheism does not equal rationality: do you really think fiat appeals to emotion like this are going to have any sway among thinking beings who are actually willing to consider the facts?

[Bad Writer]

How is rape ever the victim's fault? The crime implies that there was an unwilling party. Go fuck yourself, Tripwire.

[Assimilate]

Rape... victim should be more careful..... ridiculous.

[EvolutionKills]

Stop acting like saying "fetus" is any less brutal. It's a human, just who hasn't been born yet. And in response to your question, yes. You chose to get pregnant. If you got raped, you should've been more careful. (Not justifying it by any means.) Luckily, I have empathy, so if that was me, I would want to live, or I wouldn't be here right now. Christians are pro-life, but for all the wrong reasons.

---

Why?

Because I 1. Have empathy. 2. Am not a bloodthirsty killer.

I'm going to ignore the rape bit for now, and instead just sit back and enjoy watching you be eviscerated by the rest of the forum; or at least the ones with actual empathy.


Are you an organ donor? I am, and if I die and they can use my organs, I want them to be used to prolong the life of another. It is my choice to be an organ donor. If you do not choose to be an organ donor, someone else cannot go against your wishes and harvest your body for usable parts. You may be dead, but the needs and will of others cannot supersede your own control of your own body, even after your death.

So how come you don't want women to have at least as much control over their bodily autonomy as a corpse?


Are you more concerned with all of the potential lives of the unborn? Then your position is inhumane and untenable, because you care more about potential human beings than you do with the ones that already exist. Within the greater picture, if you are truly concerned with human suffering, then the lives of actual woman take precedent over the potential lives of potential humans. Arguing from a zygote's potential gets you nowhere, especially in light of our advances in genetics and cloning. If you argue from a cell's potential, then every time you blow or scratch your nose you are implicated in a holocaust of potential human beings. Every woman's period is the murder of a potential human, every male orgasm that doesn't empty into a fertile vagina is a mass grave of potential human beings.

This position is simply untenable, unless you also plan on making masturbation and sex between infertile couples capitol offenses?


Are you actually interested in lowering the amount of abortions that actually take place? If that is the case, all of the data points to the fact that simply making abortion illegal does not reduce abortion rates; it simply makes the practice far more dangerous. Abortions are a symptom of unwanted pregnancies. So to lower the rate of abortions, you should lower the amount of unwanted pregnancies. The best proven way to do this is to have comprehensive sex education, cheap easy access to contraception, universal healthcare, and a robust social safety net. This allows more people to have sex without becoming pregnant, and will make it easier to raise the baby if she does get pregnant and chooses to keep it.

This has been demonstrated in western Europe, whose abortion rate is much lower than the rest of the world; including the United States. For example, in western Europe the abortion rate is 12 per 1000 woman, in eastern Europe it's 43 per 1000. This is the core of being Pro-Choice, it is to support a woman's right to choose, and supporting them whether they choose to abort the pregnancy or if they choose to carry it to term. This position is the best way to lower the number of abortions and respect the safety and bodily autonomy of women.


If you oppose choice because you want women to be punished for enjoying and consenting to sex (but not pregnancy)? Then you are simply a terrible human being with a warped morality that is far more concerned with judgement and retribution than you are with doing something to effectively lower the number of abortions. This makes you a terrible human being who lacks simple empathy, and your opinion is not worthy of consideration in the discussion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/...l?_r=1&

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Can we get back to the part where tripwire said if you get raped you should have been more careful? And he says christians are pro life for the wrong reasons!
Also I would like to know what tripwires definition of 'human' is.

It's akin to saying "If you were murdered, you should have been more careful."

What a nuanced and intelligent argument.

---

Why?

Because I 1. Have empathy. 2. Am not a bloodthirsty killer.

So everyone who decides to proceed with an abortion is by default a blood thirsty killer?

I'm not one for hyperbole but if say that's a massively and world destroyingly inaccurate representation of the thought process.

[No_God]

Abortion is none of my business unless its my abortion.

[Crossless2.0]

Abortion is none of my business unless its my abortion.

. . . in which case it's none of our business.

[Esquilax]

Abortion is none of my business unless its my abortion.

This!

Isn't it funny how few "pro-life" arguments even mention the women involved in these decisions? Tripwire certainly didn't; I'm not going to go so far as to say he doesn't care about women, but it's clear that pro-lifers hold them in less regard than the little balls of cells they might produce. It's so interesting how those willing to label themselves pro-life are just as willing to cut women out of their argumentation.

Last time I checked, most women are, you know, alive.

[Minimalist]

You are basically sentencing a woman to 15-18 years of hard labor for getting pregnant. What gives you that right?

Well that's a load of crap. She is quite able to adopt it out if she doesn't want it.

So you don't know fuckall about the realities of adoption either, huh?

Typical.

Sure. A white baby could be adopted quickly. After that it gets real fucking dicey.

Because I 1. Have empathy

Your empathy only extends to a gob of goo which you will not have to have anything to do with. That's fairly limited "empathy" my friend.