Virgin Births a dime a dozen

[xpastor]

Claims of virgin births in U.S. near 1 per cent: study

From a study published in a British medical journal. Among young women followed over a period of 14 years approximately 0.8% claimed to have become pregnant without engaging in sexual intercourse.

Those who made such claims were much more likely to have signed a chastity pledge and also to say that their parents talked to them rarely or never about sex and birth control.

If the claim of Jesus' birth originated with his mother, this phenomenon provides a plausible explanation. After all, the penalties back then for pregnancy outside marriage were much harsher than the shame of breaking a chastity pledge.

Personally, I think the claim was more likely to have originated with his fan club after they started to claim divine status for him. There are plenty of examples in the ancient world of hero-figures whose birth was said to have resulted from a human woman being impregnated by a god—e.g., Alexander the Great.

[Drich]

I would have thought someone claiming to be a 'pastor' at somepoint in his life would have a little more knoweledge and understanding than a common atheist has about the basic fundimentals of Christianity. How does one goto seminary and not know that the Virgin birth of Christ in of it self is not proof of anything? It's almost like you didn't actually go. If you had you would have known the virgin birth of Christ was a sign of Christ's deity along with thousands of other 'signs and wonders' He was apart of. This particular sign full filled one single prophesy. Everything else Christ live out and did full filled the others. It is the combination of all of his works/life, that underscores who Christ was.

[Faith No More]

Once again, Drich reads things that aren't there. Is it so hard to just read the words that are written.

As far as virgin births are concerned, I maintain that I am one, because the thought of my parents having sex is just gross.

[NoraBrimstone]

I would have thought someone claiming to be a 'pastor' at somepoint in his life would have a little more knoweledge and understanding than a common atheist has about the basic fundimentals of Christianity. How does one goto seminary and not know that the Virgin birth of Christ in of it self is not proof of anything? It's almost like you didn't actually go. If you had you would have known the virgin birth of Christ was a sign of Christ's deity along with thousands of other 'signs and wonders' He was apart of. This particular sign full filled one single prophesy. Everything else Christ live out and did full filled the others. It is the combination of all of his works/life, that underscores who Christ was.

Meanwhile, nobody who ever met him seems to have thought he was special enough to write about. Weird, huh? I mean, I know literacy rates were low, but you'd think some of the literate people would have written about a magic carpenter turned fugitive who rose from the bloody dead.

[Mister Agenda]

I consider it some slight evidence in favor of a historical Jesus that the circumstances of his birth needed justification. The messiah wasn't supposed to be born of a virgin, he was supposed to be of the male line of David.

There was no virgin birth prophecy, Isaiah refers to a young woman having a son she will name Immanuel. It's wishful thinking to tie this to Jesus. The Greek translation of Isaiah uses a word for maiden that means 'virgin' which made it into the Latin and English translations, but the Hebrew word does not mean 'virgin'. Also this Immanuel was supposed to be someone during whose childhood the enemies of Ahaz would be destroyed, Ahaz being the king the prophet is predicting for.

[xpastor]

I would have thought someone claiming to be a 'pastor' at somepoint in his life would have a little more knoweledge and understanding than a common atheist has about the basic fundimentals of Christianity. How does one goto seminary and not know that the Virgin birth of Christ in of it self is not proof of anything? It's almost like you didn't actually go. If you had you would have known the virgin birth of Christ was a sign of Christ's deity along with thousands of other 'signs and wonders' He was apart of. This particular sign full filled one single prophesy. Everything else Christ live out and did full filled the others. It is the combination of all of his works/life, that underscores who Christ was.

Drich, this is perhaps the last occasion when I will waste my time replying to you. In seven short sentences all your major failings are on display.

1. You habitually contradict yourself because you are so eager to shoot off your mouth that you don't stop and think. First, you say that the virgin birth of Christ is not proof of anything. Then you say it was a sign of Christ's deity, which is pretty much the opposite of your previous sentence. Just to be clear, there is no such thing as proof outside formal logic and mathematics. There is only evidence for or against a claim. I did not bother to say so because it is so commonly understood by Christians and atheists alike that the virgin birth was supposed to be a sign of Christ's divine status, just as the story of Alexander's miraculous conception was intended to present him as a god.

2. You are very rude. You were rude to your "brother in faith" Aractus, and you have more than once been rude to me, questioning my intelligence.

3. Your rudeness springs from your colossal ignorance. You know absolutely fuck-all about my seminary and my academic record and my work as a pastor.

(a) You would probably have approved of my seminary at least if you could understand the big words the professors used. It was operated by the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, which means that it was a fundamentalist institution committed to the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. Of course when I entered seminary, I believed this too. I have come around to a different way of thinking, and I now refer to institutions like this as sheltered seminaries. You've heard of sheltered workshops? For mentally challenged people who can't compete in a normal work environment. A sheltered seminary is for evidentially-challenged fundamentalists, who cannot be trusted to read about evolution or modern biblical criticism on their own. They can only hear about it in the context of someone claiming that those arguments have all been refuted. The core principle of modern biblical criticism is to use all the available scholarship, all knowledge of the ancient languages and social conditions and copying of books, in order to read what the bible is actually saying without starting from the assumption that it cannot possibly make a mistake or contradict itself.

(b) Over my three years of seminary, when I still believed in biblical inerrancy, I achieved a Grade Point Average of 3.93 in a variety of courses including several New Testament courses in Greek on individual books, two semesters of basic Hebrew, preaching, counseling, church administration and tons of courses in systematic theology, including apologetics, which is the defense of Christian doctrine.

© I did not stay in the ministry a long time. There were many factors which led to my decision to leave, and they certainly included making a closer study of the bible than I ever had as a layman. Not too surprising. Many people have testified that they became atheists by reading the bible, sometimes the Gideon bible left in a hotel room. As Isaac Asimov succinctly put it, "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."

However, I must point out that I was not yet an atheist at the time I left the ministry. I knew very well what the teachings of my denomination were, and while I remained in the ministry, I was careful to preach sermons that were in the narrow band of topics where my beliefs still overlapped with theirs. It was how I was earning my living, and I thought it was honorable to produce work that would be acceptable to my employer.

[Minimalist]

The virgin birth is bullshit, drippy. Just like the rest of your story.

[Faith No More]

3. Your rudeness springs from your colossal ignorance arrogance.

Fixed that for you.

Of course, the only thing dwarfed by Drich's arrogance, is, in fact, his ignorance. His rudeness, however, definitely stems from over-sized, Jesus-shaped ego.

[Doubting Thomas]

From a study published in a British medical journal. Among young women followed over a period of 14 years approximately 0.8% claimed to have become pregnant without engaging in sexual intercourse.

Those who made such claims were much more likely to have signed a chastity pledge and also to say that their parents talked to them rarely or never about sex and birth control.

If they were involved in heavy petting and weren't careful where the semen ended up, or if they were practicing anal like so many chastity pledgers do, and some semen dripped down into her vulva, then plausible. Otherwise they're probably lying their asses off. Considering that their parents rarely or never talked to them about sex and birth control, either scenario is likely.

At any rate, this is good evidence that "abstinence only" doesn't work worth shit for preventing unwanted pregnancies.

[The Valkyrie]

Claims of virgin births in U.S. near 1 per cent: study

From a study published in a British medical journal. Among young women followed over a period of 14 years approximately 0.8% claimed to have become pregnant without engaging in sexual intercourse.

Those who made such claims were much more likely to have signed a chastity pledge and also to say that their parents talked to them rarely or never about sex and birth control.

If the claim of Jesus' birth originated with his mother, this phenomenon provides a plausible explanation. After all, the penalties back then for pregnancy outside marriage were much harsher than the shame of breaking a chastity pledge.

Personally, I think the claim was more likely to have originated with his fan club after they started to claim divine status for him. There are plenty of examples in the ancient world of hero-figures whose birth was said to have resulted from a human woman being impregnated by a god—e.g., Alexander the Great.

Claiming a virgin birth for so-called divinities, whether a legandary warrior, a hero, a general or some type of other leader was, as you say, surprisingly common in ancient times. It's as if they considered a woman who had sex was somehow unclean - which, it seems, many fundies in the modern world still do.

ANd you are correct, a young girl who gets pregnant in a society where the punishment for doing so, unmarried, is to be killed. Of course she's going to claim whatever it takes to stay alive.

And, for Drich. The prophecies CHrist suposedly fulfilled from the Torah: The Jewish Rabbis said he didn't, and since it's their holy book, I'm more likely to believe them.