Dennett throws down the gloves and pummels Sam Harris right in the gut

[MindForgedManacle]

Why should they start with the existence of any god?

Well you have to start somewhere.

I love how you didn't really answer his question.

[Sword of Christ]

You need to get the start right in order to be right about anything else relating to the subject. And you still need a place to start you can't say "the universe" is the start if the universe is the thing that had a start.

[Mudhammam]

You need to get the start right in order to be right about anything else relating to the subject. And you still need a place to start you can't say "the universe" is the start if the universe is the thing that had a start.

Can you prove that starting with god yields more advantage to any field of study than starting with flying spaghetti does?

[Sword of Christ]

Can you prove that starting with god yields more advantage to any field of study than starting with flying spaghetti does?

What else do you start with? You can't start with anything that itself has a start.

[Mudhammam]

Can you prove that starting with god yields more advantage to any field of study than starting with flying spaghetti does?

What else do you start with? You can't start with anything that itself has a start.

Um, how about Big Bang cosmology? Black holes?

[pocaracas]

Can you prove that starting with god yields more advantage to any field of study than starting with flying spaghetti does?

What else do you start with? You can't start with anything that itself has a start.

You keep missing other people's points...

Why should we start with something unrelated with the observed reality? with something... postulated as existing, but with no single shred of evidence of its existence...?
What's wrong with starting just after the big bang?

[Sword of Christ]

Um, how about Big Bang cosmology? Black holes?

The universe began to exist therefore something caused it to exist, and the universe can't be the the cause of itself of course as it would have to exist in order to make itself exist in the first place. So you will need something eternal and fully self sufficient within itself that would bring space, time and matter into existence. Black holes are just a result of the natural laws of physics within the universe from the moment of the Big Bang and were critical to galactic formation. There is a blackhole in the centre of every galaxy so these are actually part of the overall structure.

[pocaracas]

Um, how about Big Bang cosmology? Black holes?

The universe began to exist therefore something caused it to exist,

Are you sure that's how that sentence goes?
Did it begin to exist?
Or does it exist since the beginning of time? Thus it has always been in existence?

Do note the careful use of temporal words here... without time, there's no causal effect.

and the universe can't be the the cause of itself of course as it would have to exist in order to make itself exist in the first place.

Like I said above, no Universe, means no time and no space. No time means there's no such thing as a causal effect, so no cause for the Universe's existence.
I know it's difficult to think about absence of time, since all our verbs rely on the existence of time, some way or another...

So you will need something eternal and fully self sufficient within itself that would bring space, time and matter into existence.

hmmm... quantum fluctuations in vacuum seem to fit the bill...
Do you think we should be so bold as to assume it to be something more complex than sporadic quantum fluctuations which bring about a few particles, every now and then?

[Ryantology]

I'm with Min on this, not dissing philosophy, but I prefer to waste my time on concrete shit. Masturbation is more than rubbing a penis or a clitoris.

Isn't that staking a philosophical position?

[MindForgedManacle]

Can you prove that starting with god yields more advantage to any field of study than starting with flying spaghetti does?

What else do you start with? You can't start with anything that itself has a start.

Who says we are? Do you know ANYTHING about cosmology? I've great doubts given how you're bumbling along.

---

You need to get the start right in order to be right about anything else relating to the subject. And you still need a place to start you can't say "the universe" is the start if the universe is the thing that had a start.

Why do you think we think that the universe had a start of its existence? Again, are you even aware of the fact that there are a good number of completely self-contained cosmological models? Of course, you'd just prefer to go on like an idiot.