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Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
#11
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
(February 15, 2014 at 11:30 am)orogenicman Wrote: Actually, it would be the other way around, since many non-believers were, in fact, burned at the stake by Christians during the middle ages.

... by mindlessly following the populist view... which at the moment is atheism

(February 15, 2014 at 10:28 am)FreeTony Wrote: I wouldn't worship anyone harming my parents based on their beliefs.

Well in this case the parents are choosing to harm themselves. I wouldn't take that right to chose away from them. Of course I'm saddened for their loss.
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#12
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
If only that were true, Frods.... but we're working on it.

Meanwhile.......






This will teach you to bring up witches and burning!
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#13
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
(February 14, 2014 at 9:58 am)FreeTony Wrote: Atheists tend to be those that didn't get brought up with religious parents, but there are some who were Christians and now lack belief.

Christians have all been brought up by religious parents and/or school indocrination. There are none that were brought up without any indocrination.

While I agree that the pattern you notice describes the greatest number of Muricans there is a small subset of Christians you may be overlooking. It seems that there is a small subset of folks who escape strong indoctrination at their parents hands but then get themselves into so much trouble that they will latch onto anything that floats to save their hides (but call it their soul). These will be people who lack the wit and imagination to make good choices in the first place. When they get miserable enough, having developed nothing of value in themselves, they very willingly surrender everything to God. Of course they didn't have much to surrender anyhow.

This minority of Christians will become the most vocal of missionaries and be the ones we hear from the most often at a site like this. Drich is a good example. They assume every non-Christian is as empty and miserable as they had been without God. But then what alternative do they really have? It would take someone of more character than these poor bastards have to recognize that plenty of others are able to develop a strong center and a happy life without buying into any god bullshit.
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#14
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
(February 15, 2014 at 12:30 pm)whateverist Wrote: While I agree that the pattern you notice describes the greatest number of Muricans there is a small subset of Christians you may be overlooking. It seems that there is a small subset of folks who escape strong indoctrination at their parents hands but then get themselves into so much trouble that they will latch onto anything that floats to save their hides (but call it their soul). These will be people who lack the wit and imagination to make good choices in the first place. When they get miserable enough, having developed nothing of value in themselves, they very willingly surrender everything to God. Of course they didn't have much to surrender anyhow.

This minority of Christians will become the most vocal of missionaries and be the ones we hear from the most often at a site like this. Drich is a good example. They assume every non-Christian is as empty and miserable as they had been without God. But then what alternative do they really have? It would take someone of more character than these poor bastards have to recognize that plenty of others are able to develop a strong center and a happy life without buying into any god bullshit.

Yeah that is true. Like any other cult they prey on the weak and desperate.

I think it takes a special kind of Theist to come on here and preach.

(February 15, 2014 at 12:09 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: ... by mindlessly following the populist view... which at the moment is atheism

It is? America is something like 80% Christian.

(February 15, 2014 at 12:09 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Well in this case the parents are choosing to harm themselves. I wouldn't take that right to chose away from them. Of course I'm saddened for their loss.

No. Your God is choosing to punish them, and you endorse this.
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#15
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
Quite agreed. Christianity goes well beyond positing that a god exists and makes assertions about the nature and activities of this god "Yahweh" that should be clearly absurd to anyone not indoctrinated.

According to Christianity, their god had to become his own son so that he could sacrifice himself upon a cross as the only means to appease his own wrath, convince himself to forgive us and allow himself to change a rule that he made in the first place. Anyone who doesn't believe this will be tortured forever by the god who loves us so much.

The concept of blood sacrifice to appease the wrath of the gods is nothing new but Christianity takes it to a new level of madness by proposing that their god sent his own son to be that sacrifice. Why does Yahweh need to kill his own son just to convince himself to forgive us? I can do that without killing anyone. Yet we are told that Jesus sacrifice on the cross was the only way that divine forgiveness was even possible.

Christianity then escalates the madness by telling us that Jesus and his father Yahweh, along a Holy Spirit, are all part of the same god-substance-thing. It's the only religion that tries to be monotheistic and polytheistic at the same time. So Yahweh is really sacrificing himself in the form of his own son who is also him. So bleeding on a cross is apparently instrumental in convincing himself to forgive us.

The babbling nonsense of the Trinity is utterly incoherent, even to the best Christian minds through the ages that tried to unravel it. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all separate persons but part of the same substance being. Or is that separate beings but part of the same substance person? In any event, the best way to understand it is to realize it was a theological compromise between strict Jewish monotheism and an intercessor godling. Judaism needed no such intercessor and, in fact, having one was strictly forbidden by Yahweh (see Isaiah 43:10-12) and yet we're required to have one according to Jesus (John 14:6).

So Jesus is God when the story and theology requires it and not-God when the story or theology requires it. This is laughably contrived as a story telling device and doesn't work much better as the basis for a religion.

Finally, we come to the salvation scheme and eternal Hell. Opinions differ on the issue of how salvation is attained. Indeed, even the Bible flip flops all over the place on what should be an important issue to be absolutely clear on. Regardless, the bottom line is we need to believe in a good and just god who will eternally torture beings. This theological point is often a reason ex-Christians cite for their deconversion.

So yes, it's a great big pile of crazy. It amazes me that anyone EVER believed it, never mind in today's age. Evolution is the least of the Bible's problems. It creates a god that has motivations impossible to fathom except as the creation of a class of priests.

I've played a great many role-playing games (traditional table top interactive story-telling type) with so many universes where the supernatural forces and gods are real. Always, as a part of good story telling, the motivations of gods, whether good or evil, are clearly explained. I can't imagine an RPG that would be centered around the Christian universe. Neither the motivations of their god nor the opposing devil make any sense.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#16
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
(February 15, 2014 at 7:32 am)FreeTony Wrote: You were brought up with Atheist parents? You worship a God that is sending them to hell?

Yuuup!

Mom was a buddhist, and dad was/is a 'spiritualist.'

Mom is now a Christian and dad is still a spiritualist with tendancies towards the god of his youth.. This version of God sound alot like the english god, but makes allowances for all the stuff he wants to involve himself with.

If my dad wants to seperate himself from the God of the bible then I have absolutly no problem with that. I still love him, but God gave him an oppertunity to choose where he wants to spend eternity. He chooses to seperate himself from the God of the bible. So who am I to tell him he has chosen wrongly for himself?

(February 15, 2014 at 9:26 am)fr0d0 Wrote:
(February 15, 2014 at 7:32 am)FreeTony Wrote: You were brought up with Atheist parents? You worship a God that is sending them to hell?

Well that's true for me.

It's my offensive opinion that 99% of present day atheists (together with a lot of equally gullible Christians) if living in the middle ages would have been the Christians burning witches at the stake.
THIS Is SO TRUE!!!

These are the same people who use whatever means at their disposal to do what it is they want to do.. If they must use the excuse of God then that is what they will do, if they can seperate themselves from God and truly be on their own then they would do that as well.

The only point where I see it differently is in the percentage of those who think this way.
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#17
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
(February 15, 2014 at 12:47 pm)FreeTony Wrote:
(February 15, 2014 at 12:09 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: ... by mindlessly following the populist view... which at the moment is atheism

It is? America is something like 80% Christian.

(February 15, 2014 at 12:09 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Well in this case the parents are choosing to harm themselves. I wouldn't take that right to chose away from them. Of course I'm saddened for their loss.

No. Your God is choosing to punish them, and you endorse this.

1. 80% of whom a tiny percentage think for themselves, just like the atheist majority.

2. Nice theology you have there. Don't tell me what I believe though thanks Wink
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#18
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
It's interesting how hard you guys (Drich and Fr0d0) hang on to the "evil atheist" stereotype. You have both been here long enough to know it's bullshit. You must need it real bad.
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#19
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
Who said that atheists are evil? Not me. A lot of atheists here are great people. And we're all capable of doing bad stuff *raises hand*.

The vast majority of my friends are atheists. I don't even know the position of most of them come to that. It just isn't important, and not a measure I would judge people by. What matters to me is my own health and well-being and that I can be a good friend.

That's not what I'm saying at all.
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#20
RE: Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination
(February 15, 2014 at 1:48 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(February 15, 2014 at 12:47 pm)FreeTony Wrote: No. Your God is choosing to punish them, and you endorse this.
2. Nice theology you have there. Don't tell me what I believe though thanks Wink

So you don't endorse it? Don't worship the God then.

Or you think your God is incapable of sending your parents to Heaven. It's not omnipotent.

Or you think your God is omnipotent yet doesn't want to send your parents to Heaven. Don't worship the God then.
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