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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 12:39 pm
(May 22, 2014 at 12:33 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: At no point does it say anywhere: 'these rules are only there for Israel'
It merely says, tell these rules to Israel. The OT passage says that the law would make Israel a special nation "above all people." Obviously the law would not set them above all people if it were given to all people.
The Acts passage does indeed say that gentiles do not need to keep the law.
It's pretty clear. You don't need to make a knee-jerk defensive reaction to everything I say.
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 12:44 pm
I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me that your interpretation of the bible is the right one when there are 4000 different denominations of Christianity out there, all with different opinions. But of course, they are all wrong, only you've got it right.
So you are under no obligation to follow the laws set by god? Where do you get your morality from then? You must be immoral and evil like us. Do you follow the 10 commandments? If not, why not? If you do, why bother? You don't have to. Is it even possible to sin when you don't have to follow the laws god set?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 1:00 pm
(May 22, 2014 at 12:44 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me that your interpretation of the bible is the right one when there are 4000 different denominations of Christianity out there, all with different opinions. But of course, they are all wrong, only you've got it right. You're right that you shouldn't accept it on my word. You should accept it because it's a clear and reasonable interpretation. If other denominations interpret otherwise, you should ask them for supporting passages as you asked me, and examine the strength of the two positions.
Jewish interpretation of the OT has generally been that the Gentiles are not under the law. Jews intepreted the Tanakh as having a Noahide law, which consists of seven rules which are the only rules thought to apply to Gentiles. A person who followed these was a righteous Gentile before god, but of lesser place than a righteous Jew.
Quote:So you are under no obligation to follow the laws set by god? Where do you get your morality from then? You must be immoral and evil like us. Do you follow the 10 commandments? If not, why not? If you do, why bother? You don't have to. Is it even possible to sin when you don't have to follow the laws god set?
I attempt to follow the rules which apply to Gentile Christians. For instance, murder is prohibited before the law and in the epistles as well as in the law, so it seems applicable to all people. OTOH, eating shellfish is only prohibited in the law, so it is only applicable to Israel.
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 2:11 pm
(May 22, 2014 at 1:00 pm)alpha male Wrote: You're right that you shouldn't accept it on my word. You should accept it because it's a clear and reasonable interpretation.
Well that's weird....cause I think that my interpretation is clear and reasonable. And i'm pretty sure the 4000 other denominations think their interpretations are clear and reasonable.
(May 22, 2014 at 1:00 pm)alpha male Wrote: I attempt to follow the rules which apply to Gentile Christians. For instance, murder is prohibited before the law and in the epistles as well as in the law, so it seems applicable to all people. OTOH, eating shellfish is only prohibited in the law, so it is only applicable to Israel.
But you don't have to follow them because you aren't part of gods chosen people. But what is the point in following them if there isn't any punishment for not following them? I mean, gods chosen people have the threat of hell looming above them if they don't follow the rules, but apparently you don't. So why bother?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 2:25 pm
(May 22, 2014 at 2:11 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: (May 22, 2014 at 1:00 pm)alpha male Wrote: I attempt to follow the rules which apply to Gentile Christians. For instance, murder is prohibited before the law and in the epistles as well as in the law, so it seems applicable to all people. OTOH, eating shellfish is only prohibited in the law, so it is only applicable to Israel.
But you don't have to follow them because you aren't part of gods chosen people. But what is the point in following them if there isn't any punishment for not following them? I mean, gods chosen people have the threat of hell looming above them if they don't follow the rules, but apparently you don't. So why bother? I didn't say I try to follow the rules given to Israel. See the bolded part above.
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 2:27 pm
(May 22, 2014 at 2:25 pm)alpha male Wrote: I didn't say I try to follow the rules given to Israel. See the bolded part above.
How do the gentile rules differ then?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 2:41 pm
(This post was last modified: May 22, 2014 at 2:49 pm by Ryantology.)
(May 22, 2014 at 1:00 pm)alpha male Wrote: I attempt to follow the rules which apply to Gentile Christians. For instance, murder is prohibited before the law and in the epistles as well as in the law, so it seems applicable to all people. OTOH, eating shellfish is only prohibited in the law, so it is only applicable to Israel.
How convenient it would be if I got to pick and choose the rules I wanted to follow, especially if all I had to do was interpret the rules to my advantage.
Because, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus makes it clear that the law is in effect until heaven and earth disappear, and he has a direct warning against those who fail to uphold it, or teach others that it's okay not to uphold it.
"Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "
Fudging on just one of them makes you the lowest piece of garbage in heaven's gutters, so what do you think happens to those who outright don't even make a token effort to uphold any of the commandments they find to be inconvenient or objectionable? The Pharisees were cursed and shamed for following the letter and ignoring the spirit of the law. Modern Christians virtually never bother with either letter or spirit. They claim that it doesn't apply to them.
I hope for your sake that God is much less a stickler for rules than the Bible makes him out to be.
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 3:27 pm
(May 22, 2014 at 2:27 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: How do the gentile rules differ then? Already explained: rules which appear before and/or after the law are generally applicable to gentiles. Also note the seven Noahide rules.
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 3:31 pm
(May 22, 2014 at 3:27 pm)alpha male Wrote: Already explained: rules which appear before and/or after the law are generally applicable to gentiles. Also note the seven Noahide rules.
I don't know what the Noahide rules are.
So what rules do you follow?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Theistic morality
May 22, 2014 at 3:37 pm
(May 22, 2014 at 10:14 am)Esquilax Wrote: So I take it that if you were Israeli, you'd be a slave owning, witch burning, gay stoning guy? You've got no objections to those things beyond that they're special rules for Jesus' special club? 
This is still an important question, John: are you therefore saying that there is a group of people for which the acts listed above are not only morally acceptable, but encouraged? If such a group rolled into your town, would you be okay with their slave taking and so on?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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