Simple question really.

[professor]

When it says, a third of the stars of heaven were drawn after the dragon (Rev. 12:4), it clearly pictures Satan as the dragon. The angels which followed him became fallen. He sucked them in.

[Chad32]

Does it explain what he said, and why a third of heaven's population agreed with him? Heaven must not be perfect if he can convince a fair chunk of people that it isn't.

[Ravenshire]

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

But the first days in the garden (according to your favorite book of mythology) were measured much shorter than 1000 years. For the evening and the morning were the first day. Ring a bell?!? God allegedly told Adam and Eve they would die the very day (remember, the evening and the morning) they ate of the tree. They did not. Your gawd is a liar!

---

Key word is obviously. You're not thinking it through and are missing the cunning and subtlety of the deceit. Satan's temptation gave them a choice:

- disobey God (i.e. do evil), gain knowledge of good and evil, get death

- obey God (do good), gain knowledge of good and evil, no death

If one can know good by doing evil - and that was Satan's claim - then logically one can also no evil by doing good. So, if they had resisted temptation, they would have gained the same knowledge, but without punishment.

All very well and good, until you remember that A&E had no understanding of good and evil until they ate from the tree. Oops!

---

I actually think he has a decent point. Only thing is...It's not actually in the bible...

Proverbs 25
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Proverbs 25 (in it's entirety)
"1 These are more proverbs of Solomon, copied by the men of Hezekiah king of Judah:
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
3 As the heavens are high and the earth is deep, so the hearts of kings are unsearchable.
4 Remove the dross from the silver, and out comes material for the silversmith;
5 remove the wicked from the king's presence, and his throne will be established through righteousness.
6 Do not exalt yourself in the king's presence, and do not claim a place among great men;
7 it is better for him to say to you, "Come up here," than for him to humiliate you before a nobleman. What you have seen with your eyes
8 do not bring hastily to court, for what will you do in the end if your neighbor puts you to shame?
9 If you argue your case with a neighbor, do not betray another man's confidence,
10 or he who hears it may shame you and you will never lose your bad reputation.
11 A word aptly spoken is like apples of gold in settings of silver.
12 Like an earring of gold or an ornament of fine gold is a wise man's rebuke to a listening ear.
13 Like the coolness of snow at harvest time is a trustworthy messenger to those who send him; he refreshes the spirit of his masters.
14 Like clouds and wind without rain is a man who boasts of gifts he does not give.
15 Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.
16 If you find honey, eat just enough-- too much of it, and you will vomit.
17 Seldom set foot in your neighbor's house-- too much of you, and he will hate you.
18 Like a club or a sword or a sharp arrow is the man who gives false testimony against his neighbor.
19 Like a bad tooth or a lame foot is reliance on the unfaithful in times of trouble.
20 Like one who takes away a garment on a cold day, or like vinegar poured on soda, is one who sings songs to a heavy heart.
21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
22 In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you.
23 As a north wind brings rain, so a sly tongue brings angry looks.
24 Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
25 Like cold water to a weary soul is good news from a distant land.
26 Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked.
27 It is not good to eat too much honey, nor is it honorable to seek one's own honor.
28 Like a city whose walls are broken down is a man who lacks self-control."

Nope. Nothing in there about figuring out the difference between good and evil by doing good. Just that second verse bit about "searching out matters" which is insanely vague and can be twisted to a shit-ton of purposes.

---

3 pages and no one mentions the Satanists' antics.

In their quest for power, they link up with Lucifer.
Human sacrifice is part of their rituals.

See, the Devil wants his chosen to spill their blood (or someone elses') for him-
the opposite of what God did.
Part of that, is the cuttings they do on their bodies.

It is noteworthy that the only enemy of the Devil worshipers is Christ.
Not Buddha, Allah, Hindu deity, etc. followers.
Same deal with the Alien entities which rail only against Jesus Christ.

Source for your bullshit?!?

I've heard all kinds of stories about satanists, but never anything with facts to back them up. Care to share or are you gonna just ignore me?!?

---

I do not have a bunch of testimonies of x-satanists in a file somewhere.
Over the years many people have come out of it and made known their experiences.

What I stated above is common knowledge for people who investigate spiritual things.
I am sure a search would turn up lots of verification.
Of course, Naturalists would say all such testimonies are liars or deluded.
Just as is said about Christian testimonies.

If you've "investigated spiritual things" then certainly you can point us at your research. C'mon, enlighten us.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

3 pages and no one mentions the Satanists' antics.

In their quest for power, they link up with Lucifer.
Human sacrifice is part of their rituals.

See, the Devil wants his chosen to spill their blood (or someone elses') for him-
the opposite of what God did.
Part of that, is the cuttings they do on their bodies.

It is noteworthy that the only enemy of the Devil worshipers is Christ.
Not Buddha, Allah, Hindu deity, etc. followers.
Same deal with the Alien entities which rail only against Jesus Christ.

According to the Bible the God character had people engage in human sacrifices. He liked to mess with stupid people to show how wonderful he was.

Ezekiel 20:25-25 (CEV) = "25 I gave them laws that bring punishment instead of life, 26 and I let them offer me unacceptable sacrifices, including their first-born sons. I did this to horrify them and to let them know that I, the Lord, was punishing them."

[Silver]

Like I said, there are claims about the characters of Yahweh and Satan that don't always match up with their actions.

This deserves repeating.

---

He sucked them in.

Oh, they were sucked in alright. Right into stupidity via an unconvincing fictional account of supposed morality.

[max-greece]

Well this thread is hilarious.

If the question is - who's the liar, God or Satan? You can hardly expect to get the answer from God's book. Obviously God is not going to allow it to include anything good or beneficial Satan might have done.

We can, however, independently assess God on the basis of his story and see what lies there are. So, for example, we don't know that God is lying when he says Eve will die if she eats the fruit, because ultimately, according to the story, she does die as does Adam.

Where we know God is lying, on the other hand, is that the Garden, Adam, Eve, both the mentioned trees and the original sin NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED.

Its a myth - like the flood, the ark, Noah, Abraham, the exodus from Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah.......

So, all in all, regardless of your opinions on Satan, God lies all the time.

If this concerns you there is good news.

There is no God, no Satan, no salvation from the sin that never happened.

They made it all up.

[Esquilax]

We can, however, independently assess God on the basis of his story and see what lies there are. So, for example, we don't know that God is lying when he says Eve will die if she eats the fruit, because ultimately, according to the story, she does die as does Adam.

You're about to get the "oh, it was a spiritual death!" excuse, which actually adds to your point, because it shows that the actual words of the bible cannot be trusted to accurately represent its meaning.

The average believer will go on about how totally clear the bible is, a book where the word "day" means more than a day, where dying doesn't mean death, where murder is just and thinking about adultery is the same thing as actual adultery. The bible misrepresents so many simple concepts, according to the apologetics required to make it function in the world we know that we can't possibly be justified in believing it because there's no way to judge how twisted the vernacular is once we've accepted that the word "day" means "not day" when it's expressed in scripture, but only sometimes. What we have there is a book where individual words shift meaning on a dime so that simple sentences can be twisted to fit actual facts by being forced to say the opposite of what they actually say, based only on the interpretation of a group of people who couldn't possibly know what the original authorial intent was, and are hence just making shit up.

Even if we accept all these twisty apologetics, god is still lying by omission by slathering his word in such misleading language. If a conman misrepresented his product as badly as god does his, he'd be breaking the law.

[John V]

That's your justification?

Yes.

I'm always so impressed when god sends a message that determines the fate of my eternal soul in such an ambiguous, convoluted manner.

When the Bible does say something clearly, you guys bitch that we're sheep that don't think for ourselves. You bitch either way.

[Chad32]

Ezekiel 20:25-25 (CEV) = "25 I gave them laws that bring punishment instead of life, 26 and I let them offer me unacceptable sacrifices, including their first-born sons. I did this to horrify them and to let them know that I, the Lord, was punishing them."

Yahweh's incompetence. Instead of telling people something is wrong, he lets them do it in the hopes that eventually they'll stop. Except that the fundies that loved god the most just kept on doing it because their bible told them to.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Ezekiel 20:25-25 (CEV) = "25 I gave them laws that bring punishment instead of life, 26 and I let them offer me unacceptable sacrifices, including their first-born sons. I did this to horrify them and to let them know that I, the Lord, was punishing them."

Yahweh's incompetence. Instead of telling people something is wrong, he lets them do it in the hopes that eventually they'll stop. Except that the fundies that loved god the most just kept on doing it because their bible told them to.

As I've stated many times, the God character in the Bible was simply the various Assyrian/Babylonian/Persian Emperors who ruled the area. He died with the collapse of the Babylonian Empire.

The actions of the God character remind me of the actions of the Roman Emperors as depicted in the series "I Claudius" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Claudius_(TV_series), http://watchseries.lt/episode/I_Claudius_s1_e1.html. Even the Emperors who started out with the best of intentions soon grew weary of the people's whining and began to treat them with contempt. The same is true of the Biblical God character.