(June 4, 2014 at 11:46 am)Chad32 Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 11:42 am)alpha male Wrote: Eve was there, and said that he deceived her. Note also that the passage notes his cunning - he's not blatant in his lies.

Well obviously she was wrong. Like I said, nothing he said was wrong. I don't know how sure he was that Yahweh would punish them for being enlightened, but knowledge is not a bad thing. Or if you think it's a sex metaphor, natural processes are not a bad thing.

Yes he's called cunning. Cunning enough to figure out the truth, and know that being immortal and ignorant isn't as good as being mortal and enlightened.

I don't know why they hid themselves, or had a problem with being naked. If it was wrong to be naked, why were they allowed to be unclothed in the first place? It makes no sense, except for a society that was raised to believe nakedness is wrong.

Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

As you can see the serpent clearly lied.

(June 4, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 11:46 am)Chad32 Wrote: Well obviously she was wrong. Like I said, nothing he said was wrong. I don't know how sure he was that Yahweh would punish them for being enlightened, but knowledge is not a bad thing. Or if you think it's a sex metaphor, natural processes are not a bad thing.

Yes he's called cunning. Cunning enough to figure out the truth, and know that being immortal and ignorant isn't as good as being mortal and enlightened.

I don't know why they hid themselves, or had a problem with being naked. If it was wrong to be naked, why were they allowed to be unclothed in the first place? It makes no sense, except for a society that was raised to believe nakedness is wrong.

Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

As you can see the serpent clearly lied.

And then they lived for over 900 years. Or at least Adam did. Plus the only reason they died was, again, because Yahweh closed them off to the Tree of Life. It wasn't eating the fruit that killed them. It was because Yahweh hates disobedience.

(June 4, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 11:46 am)Chad32 Wrote: Well obviously she was wrong. Like I said, nothing he said was wrong. I don't know how sure he was that Yahweh would punish them for being enlightened, but knowledge is not a bad thing. Or if you think it's a sex metaphor, natural processes are not a bad thing.

Yes he's called cunning. Cunning enough to figure out the truth, and know that being immortal and ignorant isn't as good as being mortal and enlightened.

I don't know why they hid themselves, or had a problem with being naked. If it was wrong to be naked, why were they allowed to be unclothed in the first place? It makes no sense, except for a society that was raised to believe nakedness is wrong.

Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

As you can see the serpent clearly lied.

God said she'd die that day, and the serpent said she wouldn't die. So god flat-out lied, while the serpent stretched the truth a good bit.

Anyway, I'm not even sure the serpent in the garden is supposed to be Satan anyway.

It isn't. There is no character named Satan in jewish mythology. The closest thing is a title ha satan, the accuser. Which is just an angel that goes out and speaks against certain people to Yahweh. The best example is probably the story of Job.

(June 4, 2014 at 12:19 pm)ThePinsir Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

As you can see the serpent clearly lied.

God said she'd die that day, and the serpent said she wouldn't die. So god flat-out lied, while the serpent stretched the truth a good bit.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

(June 4, 2014 at 12:36 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 12:19 pm)ThePinsir Wrote: God said she'd die that day, and the serpent said she wouldn't die. So god flat-out lied, while the serpent stretched the truth a good bit.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Yeah, wasn't Peter a christian? I don't give as much credit to them in regards to jewish traditions as the jews. Why would a day to him be a thousand years?

I don't even understand how Eve was supposed to know what death was, anyway? What was the reference point?

(June 4, 2014 at 11:46 am)Chad32 Wrote: Well obviously she was wrong. Like I said, nothing he said was wrong. I don't know how sure he was that Yahweh would punish them for being enlightened, but knowledge is not a bad thing. Or if you think it's a sex metaphor, natural processes are not a bad thing.

Key word is obviously. You're not thinking it through and are missing the cunning and subtlety of the deceit. Satan's temptation gave them a choice:

- disobey God (i.e. do evil), gain knowledge of good and evil, get death

- obey God (do good), gain knowledge of good and evil, no death

If one can know good by doing evil - and that was Satan's claim - then logically one can also no evil by doing good. So, if they had resisted temptation, they would have gained the same knowledge, but without punishment.

(June 4, 2014 at 11:04 am)alpha male Wrote: John 8
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

How do you know the bible isn't a piece of slander concocted by a wicked spirit who calls himself god for the purpose of maligning satan?

---

(June 4, 2014 at 12:44 pm)alpha male Wrote: You're not thinking it through and are missing the cunning and subtlety of the deceit.

Never attribute to cunning and subtlety what can be more straightforwardly explained by nonexistence.

(June 4, 2014 at 12:36 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 12:19 pm)ThePinsir Wrote: God said she'd die that day, and the serpent said she wouldn't die. So god flat-out lied, while the serpent stretched the truth a good bit.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And here I was thinking he was existing outside of time n shit. I guess Yahweh has an age, then. If we take 13.8 billion x 365 we'll get the number of days the universe has existed. Multiply that number 1000 and you have Yahweh's age in human years :p

Anywaaaaay, if God has his own timescale that only applies to him, and didn't tell Eve about the timescale conversion when he told eve this day you'll die, that's is a deliberate withholding of the truth - in a life-or-death situation. God lied

(June 4, 2014 at 12:44 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 11:46 am)Chad32 Wrote: Well obviously she was wrong. Like I said, nothing he said was wrong. I don't know how sure he was that Yahweh would punish them for being enlightened, but knowledge is not a bad thing. Or if you think it's a sex metaphor, natural processes are not a bad thing.

Key word is obviously. You're not thinking it through and are missing the cunning and subtlety of the deceit. Satan's temptation gave them a choice:

- disobey God (i.e. do evil), gain knowledge of good and evil, get death

- obey God (do good), gain knowledge of good and evil, no death

If one can know good by doing evil - and that was Satan's claim - then logically one can also no evil by doing good. So, if they had resisted temptation, they would have gained the same knowledge, but without punishment.

How would they gain understanding of good end evil? Were we reading the same story? He specifically said this is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and I don't want you eating of it. Then after they obtained it, he kicked them out. Where is there indication that he wants people to be enlightened, as opposed to completely obedient to his every whim? When has Yahweh ever wanted his humans to be independent beings, and not just worshipful sheep?

Obey god, remain ignorant and obedient, get eternal servitude.