America a christian nation?

[Anomalocaris]

Native-americans were horribly treated... much as indigenous peoples everywhere were treated by conquering powers.

Agreed.

That said, I don't think their folklore is any more reliable than any other and oral or written does not matter. Such tales serve the needs of the authors.

All emotion and personal experience aside. I've personally read manuscripts from the past 1,100 years (13 generations) of my direct forefathers, and without exception the accounts are perfectly matched without fault or alteration. The same cannot be said for most other traditions, and especially Christianity.

I'm not looking for debate, nor do I ask for sympathy. My purpose here is a peaceful one, and if my presentation of what my people call history is offensive, then perhaps the dissidence lies deeper.

I'm saying that I trust my fathers more than I trust their arbiters, and for well documented historical reasons.

You understand the only writting in the Americas 1100 years ago belong to the Maya in Yucatan, right? Nothing whatsoever had been shown to have been written about natives Americans north of Mexico until roughly 500 years ago, and then by the unreliable christians, right?

If you have Native American writting from North America dating back 1100 years, by all means present it and have its age authenticated. You personally will go down in history if you succeed in producing native north american writting 1,100 years old.

[FatAndFaithless]

Native-americans were horribly treated... much as indigenous peoples everywhere were treated by conquering powers.

Agreed.

That said, I don't think their folklore is any more reliable than any other and oral or written does not matter. Such tales serve the needs of the authors.

All emotion and personal experience aside. I've personally read manuscripts from the past 1,100 years (13 generations) of my direct forefathers, and without exception the accounts are perfectly matched without fault or alteration. The same cannot be said for most other traditions, and especially Christianity.

I'm not looking for debate, nor do I ask for sympathy. My purpose here is a peaceful one, and if my presentation of what my people call history is offensive, then perhaps the dissidence lies deeper.

I'm saying that I trust my fathers more than I trust their arbiters, and for well documented historical reasons.

But..if you have incontrovertible proof that part of our history is being portrayed horribly inaccurately.. then you should publish or make that information public since it would help us get closer to a true representation of our country's history..

[ShaMan]

I am secure in my understanding of history as I've read it. I am not on a path to present, refute, or otherwise promote any proof or evidence toward any one position or another. My path is to express unity. My history supports my worldview, and therefor my actions. I do sincerely apologize if my presentation of certain knowledge has caused a rift in this community.

My knowledge informs my actions, and I see that the same is true for us all. Peace... Aho!

[FatAndFaithless]

I am secure in my understanding of history as I've read it. I am not on a path to present, refute, or otherwise promote any proof or evidence toward any one position or another. My path is to express unity. My history supports my worldview, and therefor my actions. I do sincerely apologize if my presentation of certain knowledge has caused a rift in this community.

My knowledge informs my actions, and I see that the same is true for us all. Peace... Aho!

Well i wouldn't say you caused any sort of rift.. I'm just curious as to how you have special information about the reality of American history, but don't want to present that information.

And it matters because like you said, your knowledge informs your actions, and if you take actions that affect other people based on information that clashes with the reality that we currently understand about American history, I believe you have a responsibility to make sure your information is as correct as possible.

[ShaMan]

To be clear - We have no fight with white america, it is they who have a fight with us, and the vehement ignorance with with they wage this war is the clearest example of why there is no treaty between us to this day.

"America" will only be satisfied when the "red" man is subjugated completely. Gawd bless 'murica.

You may all bash and complain all you like - we were there, and WE have no reason to lie.

My path is to express unity.

These two things are contradictory. Again, I apologize.

I think I need an Advil®

[Minimalist]

I've personally read manuscripts from the past 1,100 years (13 generations) of my direct forefathers,

Really? Are you a mormon asserting that wandering "jews" brought their script with them? There is no evidence of written scripts in North America going back that far and you'd have to be a Mayan to get back 1100 years.

[Jackalope]

To be clear - We have no fight with white america, it is they who have a fight with us, and the vehement ignorance with with they wage this war is the clearest example of why there is no treaty between us to this day.

"America" will only be satisfied when the "red" man is subjugated completely. Gawd bless 'murica.

You may all bash and complain all you like - we were there, and WE have no reason to lie.

You might consider me part of "white America". I'm Caucasian, and I was born her and have lived here my entire life. Your people have been treated atrociously - but please don't make the mistake in thinking that I would have any part of it. You want to blame our government? I'll stand right beside you.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

The US has never been a christian nation. Most of the founders or their families had come from countries where there were state religions. They were fleeing religious persecution and were very concerned about the need to create a government system without a state religion and in which people would be free to believe as they desired without fear of persecution. Because of the fact that most of the citizens of the country have been christians, the culture became very much christian. The culture is now moving away from christianity as the percentage of other religions, as well as "no religious preference" and atheists grows. No matter how the culture changes it's extremely important that our system of government allows citizens to be free to believe as they desire.

While the country has never been an official Christian nation all of the Colonies were established as religious entities. The problem was that each of the Colonies had different religions so in order to form one unified nation they gave up the idea of having a State religion. Even so some of the States retained their own individual State religions for decades.

[Lek]

I may as well jump on the pile. This isn't directed at ShaMan, but at everyone who makes this stuff up about christians. This time it's the story that God told told us to sweep across the country and slaughter the "red man" and take his land. You just throw this stuff out and then everyone says "yeah, yeah, that's right!" Give me a break - please. (Sorry. I should have done this as a reply to ShaMan's post on page 2.)

[Wyrd of Gawd]

This country was founded by Native Americans and their spiritual preferences, so we all need to get the hell out and head home on a trail of beers. It's been a nice ride.

That's pure B.S. The America Indians had squat to do with forming the country. A few fought in the Revolutionary War on both sides but that was about it. Most didn't even become citizens until 1924 and it wasn't until after WWII that all became citizens.

The country was formed as a white country then it became bi-racial when blacks became citizens. The Chinese were the third group and then everyone else.

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Ah, no. They may have founded something, but not this country.

What was founded by original people was peace. Peace with the land, and peace with mankind. Yes, there were tribal and territorial skirmishes, but for the most part, they lived, and let live.

Were the American Indians better than the Mexican Indians or the South American Indians?

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Ah, no.

1. Native Americans, particularly those of North America, didn't live in peace with the land. They practiced slash and burn land management on a scale larger than any other society we have direct evidence for. Their impact on global climate likely vastly exceed those of any other neolithic culture of which we have evidence, both in total, and by capita. They basically made America's midwest a grassy plain that it is by burning all the pre-existing forests, and then burn off the grass every year thereafter. The carbon they put into the atmosphere is thought to be a major contributor to climate change between 1st and 10th century AD.

2. There is no real evidence they lived and let live any more than other late neolithic cultures, at least not compare to pre-industrial societies. Even most peaceful neolithic tribes ever observed by anthropologists show vastly higher average rate of death from warfare than any modern or near modern societies. This includes WWII and any of the nations that took part in it, including nations like Poland that lost 22% of it population. What is your evidence to show native Americans on average experienced less casaulties than other late neolithic or copper cultures in the world?

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