Faith is a measure of irrationality

[Bad Wolf]

Then why comment on them?

Because you brought them up as a distraction. You still have yet to explain what faith actually does and how it actually works.

Do you really care?

I care enough to ask the question, your so far refusal to answer is telling.

Do you want examples of faith? Or faith in God?

No, like I said before, I want examples of faith working, whatever that means. So i'm guessing all faith does for you is cause miracles, or as i would say, it causes you to see miracles.

The ignorance is on your part, not mine.

You don't know what the argument from ignorance logical fallacy is, do you?
You said it was a miracle because it was un explainable. That is an argument from ignorance. You don't get to insert your god because we don't know the answer. The correct answer when you don't know the answer is always: We don't know.

So, you've made my point. There is no reason to tell you about Faith.

I'm not following you, you just don't want to describe examples of faith working because you think i'll just reject the immediately?

No. I believe it was a VAD, which is only used for operations, not emergencies.

So this VAD.....I'm assuming it didn't appear out of thin air infront of your eyes. See, that is much more worthy of being deemed a miracle than it just being found in a cuboard somewhere just in time.

But it's useless, and painful to explain anything to you.

Maybe if you actually did any explaining, you might find it easier.

Rythmn... I hope you are seeing why I didn't want to relate any of my experiences here. There is/was no reason.

Mommy mommy! The big bad atheist doesn't believe me! Waaahhhh wahhhhh

Again doctor... it wasn't a defrib machine needed.

I don't normally pray for a bunch of overpaid assholes tossing balls around.

And I would've prayed for my mom to NOT have a heart attack "IF" I knew she was going to have one!

Nice deflection again. But you didn't answer. What else is a miracle then? If your standard for miracles is so low, that a life-saving piece of medical equipment was found just in time to save your mother, what else do you see as a miracle? Can you give me examples?

Thanks again for all your great responses to my mothers care and well being.

Is that sarcasm I detect?

I'm gunna stop you right there and say I don't care about you or your mother. I have never met you or your mother or anyone who knows you. If I cared about everyone despite not ever meeting them, I would end up blowing my brains out. You may see this as another example of the 'evil atheists' and their despicable ways, but it is exactly the same thing when you see starving kids on the TV. You don't know them, they are a world away, and you don't care.

---

There was no vaporization, or cloud or smoke and thunder! The ER doctor who had said the machine that she needed was on loan, walked up to my family, and said :"the machine is in her room." and assumed, somehow it got back to the hospital and wasn't recorded as such in their inventory log. And also someone put it there who knew she needed it.

That is not a bloody miracle! See the way things work usually with people who believe in miracles is that when an event can't be explained they then call it a miracle. Its a logical fallacy but they still do it. But you, you've taken it to the next level. You are actually ignoring any other possible explanations and jumping straight to miracle. Someone just put the machine in your mothers room! That was it, whether by accident or on purpose, is irrelevant. And it wasn't recorded in the inventory log because the receptionist 'Dave' was too distracted that day to notice it arrival because his golden retriever 'Lucky' had been exhibiting strange behaviours over the past few days and Dave was worried about his health.
See, even that is a better explanation than divine intervention.

[Tonus]

I see him in nothing because I don't assume by default a being which I have yet to see any evidence for.

"yet"

Some variation of "you'll learn the truth, eventually" has been part of the theist's toolbox for as long as there have been theists, is my guess. It sounds suspiciously like "I'll prove it to you... some other time."

[Confused Ape]

Which God are you seeing? http://www.graveyardofthegods.org/deadgo...fgods.html

A good question. Not all the deities on that list are dead because of various Neo Pagan religions. Here are just a few examples.

The Greeks Who Worship The Ancient Gods

Asatru - Norse Heathenism

Kemeticism - Contemporary Revival Of Ancient Egyptian Relgion

Celtic Neopaganism

People who believe in pagan deities think that these deities answer prayers etc.

[ronedee]

That is not a bloody miracle! See the way things work usually with people who believe in miracles is that when an event can't be explained they then call it a miracle. Its a logical fallacy but they still do it. But you, you've taken it to the next level. You are actually ignoring any other possible explanations and jumping straight to miracle. Someone just put the machine in your mothers room! That was it, whether by accident or on purpose, is irrelevant. And it wasn't recorded in the inventory log because the receptionist 'Dave' was too distracted that day to notice it arrival because his golden retriever 'Lucky' had been exhibiting strange behaviours over the past few days and Dave was worried about his health.
See, even that is a better explanation than divine intervention.

See... there is no point in telling you anything. You have your mind made up before I say a word.

The problem is, I see both sides of the argument. You don't.

I made your case for you just to show you that I'm not the zombie you think I am! I'm well aware of "all" the possibilities, w/o need to ridicule you or your family, or "your experiences".

The example I gave you is one (the most important one to me) of many, many. Probably, every one of them could be explained by you. But, when they happened over and over again.... "I" started to wonder. Am I, and my ilk, just lucky... all the time? And, anit it odd that when we pray for people things seem to work out! All the time?!! Very strange indeed!

I'm pretty much in the same boat about not giving 2 shits about you either. But, you'll never see me use one of your innocent family members as fodder for sarcasm. It's just inhuman. Whether you use them to make a point, or otherwise... it's a universal line that shouldn't be crossed.

All that said. When someone experiences something you are not familiar with... How do you make an argument. When YOU weren't there...ever?

Does God need to materialize from a cloud of smoke for you to believe in a miracle.... Or could He just "use" every unique opportunity available in a given situation to save a loved one? I'll take the latter every time!

You are basing your answers on my life experiences with lack of evidence, on your part. That is called "ignorance". I have all the evidence I need: we pray; miracles happen! Spin it up any way you'd like. But, you haven't seen anything. And ironically, you never will. At least not in this life.

[Bad Wolf]

See... there is no point in telling you anything. You have your mind made up before I say a word.

Incorrect, I made up my mind after you said many many words.

The problem is, I see both sides of the argument. You don't.

I highly doubt that. Please explain 'my side' to demonstrate that you do indeed see both arguments.

I made your case for you just to show you that I'm not the zombie you think I am! I'm well aware of "all" the possibilities, w/o need to ridicule you or your family, or "your experiences".

I never accused you of being a zombie. I implied that you were gullible and unreasonable. And if you are well aware of all the possiblities, why don't you explain all of them? Again, just to demonstrate that you know them.

The example I gave you is one (the most important one to me) of many, many. Probably, every one of them could be explained by you. But, when they happened over and over again.... "I" started to wonder. Am I, and my ilk, just lucky... all the time? And, anit it odd that when we pray for people things seem to work out! All the time?!! Very strange indeed!

I'm going to let you in a not so very secret secret: Shit happens.

I'm pretty much in the same boat about not giving 2 shits about you either. But, you'll never see me use one of your innocent family members as fodder for sarcasm. It's just inhuman.

I disagree, it's very human

Whether you use them to make a point, or otherwise... it's a universal line that shouldn't be crossed.

Really? And who decided on this universal line?

All that said. When someone experiences something you are not familiar with... How do you make an argument. When YOU weren't there...ever?

From your description of the events at the hospital, it is unnecessary for me to be there to understand and assess the event. The explanation is simple, it is entirely unnecessary to envoke any kind of miracle.

Does God need to materialize from a cloud of smoke for you to believe in a miracle.... Or could He just "use" every unique opportunity available in a given situation to save a loved one?

Have you ever considered that 'every unique opportunity' is just that.

You are basing your answers on my life experiences with lack of evidence,

You are claiming things with lack of evdience.

on your part. That is called "ignorance". I have all the evidence I need: we pray; miracles happen!

I farted twice and the Netherlands scored two goals, my farts must cause Netherlands to score goals.

You think i'm taking the piss here but i'm really not. I'm simply applying your way of thinking.

Spin it up any way you'd like. But, you haven't seen anything.

And neither have you.

And ironically, you never will. At least not in this life.

That isn't what irony is. Oh and how typical, a threat or as you might like to phrase it: an ominous warning.

[The Grand Nudger]

The idea that maybe any one of these events wouldn't meet your own standard of evidence - but that all of them surpasses it to the point of belief in a god is staggering. A lot of bad evidence equals good evidence? Since when? I can point you to a half dozen people who admit to shooting jfk. Hell, if 200 people admitted to it, would that be good evidence that 200 people shot jfk? 2,000? 2mil?

"Things kept happening".....were things going to start "not happening"? "Things" are going to keep happening so long as you keep breathing, is my guess.

I suppose, in short, I can't but point out that what you've expressed thusfar is deeply, deeply irrational. Again, I doubt that your faith hinges on any of this, or that any of it actually brought you to faith.

[ronedee]

Incorrect, I made up my mind after you said many many words.

But my repeatable evidence isn't enough for you.... you've "made up" your mind.

I highly doubt that. Please explain 'my side' to demonstrate that you do indeed see both arguments.

And they claim here that we use circular reasoning? LOL! Here... I'll spell it out for you... I believe you. You don't believe me. That plain enough for you?

I never accused you of being a zombie. I implied that you were gullible and unreasonable. And if you are well aware of all the possiblities, why don't you explain all of them? Again, just to demonstrate that you know them.

Do I need to repeat over, and over that I am aware that "things" could've "happened" any number of ways? Or are you just dense?

I'm going to let you in a not so very secret secret: Shit happens.

AGAIN... I agree. But, when they happen consistently I take notice. It wasn't just any "shit" happening either!

I disagree, it's very human

So, you wouldn't mind someone taking some shots at your family?

Really? And who decided on this universal line?

Humans in general Mr Wolf...but you are an animal I assume?

From your description of the events at the hospital, it is unnecessary for me to be there to understand and assess the event. The explanation is simple, it is entirely unnecessary to envoke any kind of miracle.

That was ONE event, out of many.

Have you ever considered that 'every unique opportunity' is just that.

You are claiming things with lack of evdience.

I have repeatable evidence of "something" happening. Give it whatever "name" you'd like to.

I farted twice and the Netherlands scored two goals, my farts must cause Netherlands to score goals.

You think i'm taking the piss here but i'm really not. I'm simply applying your way of thinking.

I'll play along here... You actually farted twice in anticipation of 2 goals? I'd like to see/hear that. Did you record it? Do you have proof that happened?

I have proof that what happened in the hospital did indeed happen. Also, hundreds of other "happenings", that are complex in their unfolding and nature.

That would be more like: you trying to farting for a goal, shitting yourself instead, the football sailing through your window and and hitting you in the beans!

That isn't what irony is. Oh and how typical, a threat or as you might like to phrase it: an ominous warning.

The irony is that you are looking, but refuse to see! Just the premise of a "miracle" bothers you! Why look? That is the question?

[Mudhammam]

Rondee, the problem you can't seem to grasp is that you have absolutely no objective standard by which anyone should accept your interpretation of events as miracles. No evidence, just conjecture, because... you felt it in your gut? Because your imagination fails to consider every factor? (Humanly not possible). Why accept your word for it and not the UFO abductee or televangelist? Their testimony is far more persuasive than, "I hoped a loved one would heal! And she did! And I can't explain it!" Even so, the brain is prone to see things, that's the point. Some of us don't just accept everything "we see." This isn't the Middle Ages anymore. Better explanations are available. We know this.

[ronedee]

The idea that maybe any one of these events wouldn't meet your own standard of evidence - but that all of them surpasses it to the point of belief in a god is staggering. A lot of bad evidence equals good evidence? Since when? I can point you to a half dozen people who admit to shooting jfk. Hell, if 200 people admitted to it, would that be good evidence that 200 people shot jfk? 2,000? 2mil?

"Things kept happening".....were things going to start "not happening"? "Things" are going to keep happening so long as you keep breathing, is my guess.

I suppose, in short, I can't but point out that what you've expressed thusfar is deeply, deeply irrational. Again, I doubt that your faith hinges on any of this, or that any of it actually brought you to faith.

"deeply irrational"?! To you maybe. But, I have living, breathing proof!

Call it anything you want. But it works for me, and mine. And has been for years.

It keeps my Faith strong going forward. I've erased fear of anything out of my life by the Grace of the Holy Spirit. It's an amazing thing to have absolutely no fear of anything, or anyone!

And the only way to have that is to have God.

---

Rondee, the problem you can't seem to grasp is that you have absolutely no objective standard by which anyone should accept your interpretation of events as miracles. No evidence, just conjecture, because... you felt it in your gut? Because your imagination fails to consider every factor? (Humanly not possible). Why accept your word for it and not the UFO abductee or televangelist? Their testimony is far more persuasive than, "I hoped a loved one would heal! And she did! And I can't explain it!" Even so, the brain is prone to see things, that's the point. Some of us don't just accept everything "we see." This isn't the Middle Ages anymore. Better explanations are available. We know this.

And I said I accept your doubts. But, "I"..."ME" has proof! And it don't matter what you or the others think. It doesn't affect me in the least!

I related my experience... one of many... and it was to show you that I believe, because of that... and MANY others.

As I said: call it whatever you'd like! I'm good with that. But, your opinions mean nothing really to me. Just as mine mean nothing to you!

We come from two different worlds of thought.

[The Grand Nudger]

"deeply irrational"?! To you maybe. But, I have living, breathing proof!

Um..no, Ron, deeply irrational, as in deeply irrational as defined by logical constraints - the authority on what is or is not within the purvey of what is "rational". You don't have living breathing proof because you don't have any proof. Inigo Montoya moment. What you have isn't even evidence that you would accept (if you didn't have faith), if you'll recall.

Call it anything you want. But it works for me, and mine. And has been for years.

What works? What work is it doing? What is it? Do I dismiss this out of hand or are we going to see something to consider?

It keeps my Faith strong going forward. I've erased fear of anything out of my life by the Grace of the Holy Spirit. It's an amazing thing to have absolutely no fear of anything, or anyone!

And the only way to have that is to have God.

Just what, or whom...in your imagination....do I fear? Your claim would seem to be untrue by the simple virtue of my presence in the discussion. Seems to me that you feel that I'm out to prove that you're wrong on these claims. I'm not, I don't care. I think that they're campfire stories. What I am engaging you about, is your continually underachieving rational process. I feel that I've made a fairly simple point here - and I've humored you piling claims on top of claims, but I don't think I'm willing to go any further unless we can get a little back and forth going.