should america support Israel?

[Zack]

I was wondering about this idea of unconditional surrender by the Palestinians. Is sounds like pie in the sky to me. The problem is Israel couldn't justify leaving the millions of Palestinians from the disputed/occupied territories in legal limbo as they are now. Would 4 million people (Gaza included) be granted the same rights as Israelis and allowed to vote in Knesset elections? I can't see Likud or The Jewish Home being very receptive to this idea. They have an interest in maintaining the status quo.

[Anomalocaris]

They are not going to unconditionally surrender. They have time on their side, as well as the fact imposed presence of Israel will always remain a thorn in the side of the larger Arab and Islamic world, and sooner or later the larger Arab and Islamic world will get their act more together.

[bberryhill0]

The Sunni and Shia have been fighting for 1300 years. Why would they get their act together now?

[The Grand Nudger]

Wouldn't be the first time that people lay aside longstanding and seemingly intractable differences to instead harass a common enemy (whether real or perceived).

[Anomalocaris]

The Sunni and Shia have been fighting for 1300 years. Why would they get their act together now?

Even while they had been fighting, they had their act very much together, more so than anyone else, more so than any Europeans, the Jews, the Byzantines, or even the chinese, several times during those 1300 years. Several times in the last 1300 years Islamic states managed to make themselves amongst the most advanced, most progressive, wealthiest, and most militarily powerful in the world.

Don't think Sunni and Shia conflict would present any insurmountable obstacle to the rise of a cohesive, modern, and determined Arab or Islamic force on the scale of several hundred years. Also, any conflict based on historic concerns rather than ongoing material conflicts of interst is bond to come to an end sooner or later. I suspect the difference between Sunni and Shia will subside into something more similar to catholic Protestant divide in Europe as Islamic world modernizes over next several hundred years.

[bberryhill0]

I like your optimism but don't see Islam uniting any time soon. I think what would work would be to let them each have their own countries instead of trying to maintain the post-Ottoman empire boundaries.

[Anomalocaris]

I like your optimism but don't see Islam uniting any time soon. I think what would work would be to let them each have their own countries instead of trying to maintain the post-Ottoman empire boundaries.

I don't say Islam will unite religiously, just as Protestant, catholic, orthodox sects of Christianity has not and probably never will unite religiously. But I suspect one or more broad ranging nation like or super national organization will eventually arise to unite major parts of Islamic world based on common Islamic cultural as well as secular historic heritage, inspite of sectarian differences, similar to how nation states and super national organizations like EU arose and incorporate sects that formerly killed each other with bloodthirsty vigor little more than 300 years ago, all In the name of common secular interest.

Here I think EU potentially made a historic blunder by turning out a turkey eager to join, and thus failing to lock the largest, most advanced, and most modern Islamic nation into a western orientation. Instead turkey is kept out and forced to turn east. . I suspect turkey will become one major driving force around which an future secular, but Islamic culture based, geopolitical pole will coalesce. Europe could have tolerated a little more diversity and forestalled the rise of a neo-ottoman power pole on its door steps, but it chose to treasures it's small view of its Christian heritage instead.

Over time, turkey and Iran, Sunni and Shia, may find many common secular geopolitical interests against Russia, against the gulf sheikhdoms, against Israel. Both are Islamic nations that clearly place considerable emphasis on modernity, and one do not believe modernity and Islam necessarily exclusive, the other increasingly come to regard them as nonexclusive. Iran is so inspite of its purposed caricature as a land of mad ayatollahs in parts of the west.

[bberryhill0]

The TPP and TTIP treaties will make this all irrelevant in a few years. The World Bank will arbitrate all disputes involving corporate profits. Blackwater/Xi and other private militaries will enforce the decisions. Palestine, with no resources to exploit, will be ignored.

---

Silly me, I thought Thou Shalt Not Murder was simple. It's ok in lawful war.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill

[Anomalocaris]

The TPP and TTIP treaties will make this all irrelevant in a few years. The World Bank will arbitrate all disputes involving corporate profits. Blackwater/Xi and other private militaries will enforce the decisions. Palestine, with no resources to exploit, will be ignored.

---

Silly me, I thought Thou Shalt Not Murder was simple. It's ok in lawful war.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill

Palestine won't be ignored because land of Palestine with its strategic location between three continents, and access to Mediterranean is vital for any middle eastern power or coalition seeking to establish regional rather than just local influence. Presence of an intractable Israel in effect prevents the rise of any really influential near eastern power. So any rising power in the near east with an independent agenda, regional ambition, and substantial momentum behind it would find it expedient to take up Palestinians cause either as leverage against Israel, or as a cause that can be used to rally the forces needed to dislodge Israel. On a time of scale of several hundred years, I think it's a relatively safe bet that at least one strong power with that bent of mind, and has its act generally together, will emerge in the Middle East. This is why I don't think palastinian cause will die, or the Palestinians will surrender.

[bberryhill0]

You missed my point. Multi-national corporations don't have regional interests. The TPP and TTIP treaties allow them to override all governments if their profits are hindered.