Women. Religion’s longestrunning victims.

[Polaris]

The Christian women I have met have been much stronger than myself. I'm pretty sure they're doing great on their own and don't need some douchebag trying to change their lives.

[Thumpalumpacus]

As a utilitarian, I find the entire discussion with Stat to be laughable. The book may not literally say, "Women are second-class citizens", but that is exactly how many if not most Christians view the matter.

And as Jesus himself said, "By the fruit shall you judge the tree."

[Esquilax]

Here's a little tip for dealing with Stat: he will never see it. Because it doesn't literally say, in black and white, the words "women should be second class citizens," he will never see it. Because the bible only meticulously constructs its rules in such a way that men are given disproportionate power in comparison to, and over, women because of their gender, without outright stating that this is the case, he will never ever stop fighting against that fact.

The bible literally is sexist, but because it does not literally say the specific sexist thing that you have stated, this argument will never end, and Stat will continue to pretend that he doesn't see what the words in the book are clearly stating.

Something cannot be literally sexist without literally teaching sexism. For some reason, I find myself constantly bearing the burden of forcing you guys to actually support what you assert to be the case. It gets old, but I guess it’s a good job for me. So far, all that has been supported is the notion that the Bible has different roles for each gender, and has a hierarchy for the church and the household. This however does not support the assertion that the Bible teaches that anyone is a 2nd class citizen or somehow devalued in the eyes of God. For that, I am still waiting for the support.

Uh, if a book has roles for each gender, and one of those roles is to be exclusively submissive and lacks certain rights (like basic bodily autonomy, especially where marriage is concerned) because they are of a specific gender, then that book is advocating for sexist roles. And you can forget about this "eyes of god," crap because that's not at all interesting to an atheist, nor did it feature at all in the initial argument here. People can be second class citizens in the here and now because of the way the bible tells them to live, and if not having access to the same rights as everyone else (like, say, speaking in church, or being able to not marry your rapist, for example) doesn't make you a second class citizen, I'd like to know what exactly you think does.

[BlackMason]

Interesting post, but allow me to ask you something. Are children less human or valuable than their parents because they must submit to them? I do not believe so at all, and I do not know many parents who would disagree with me.

You must not have understood my argument if this is what you respond with. I agreed that the mere difference in rules was not sufficient to suggest that one group is being oppressed. I said that the INTENTION needs to be examined to make a determination. So no, children are not less human or less valuable than their parents because the intention for such is not evident.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”- Galatians 3:28 (ESV)

That settles the entire debate right there, as far as God is concerned, there is no value difference between males and females; a remarkable verse for a book of antiquity supposedly just written by misogynistic men.

That sir, is a mere claim. You cannot simply look at the claim and conclude that it is as what is claimed. The reality of the situation is much different. For example we have scriptures like this:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

What we have here is a clear case of gross discrimination and oppression. A woman gets raped. That itself carries enough psychological trauma and needs no further discussion. But to add insult to injury, the woman is now bound to her rapist forever, an unimaginable sentence that speaks volumes of the plight of women in biblical times. This achieved in only two short verses. I'd also like to bring your attention to the fact that at no stage of this systematic oppression does the woman have a say in the matters concerning her life. Where is the supposed equality here? Instead what we find is an unilateral decision being made.

If you don't see this then I'm sorry but you are a fool and my words are wasted on you.

[Tobie]

How? This is all just non-sequiturs. Players must submit to their coaches, does this mean they are 2nd class citizens? Nope. Having a household hierarchy does not prove that women are 2nd class citizens or devalued in scripture. Children must submit to their parents, and yet they are greatly valued by scripture.

So showing quotes which say women are to men as men are to god, or that women were created for men and getting from that, that women are equal in the eyes of god is a non-sequitur? What magical world of logic do you live in?

Players submit to their coaches, but only in matters of whatever sport they are playing, since the role of the coach is to improve their abilities at said sport. They don't submit to their coaches in life, which is what the bible passages I quoted earlier were saying women should do to their husbands.

I find myself constantly bearing the burden of forcing you guys to actually support what you assert to be the case. It gets old

So why don't you hold yourself to the same standards you hypocrite?

[BlackMason]

Tobie, Stat is using words ignoring their deeper connotations. He is clearly being disingenuous.

[Esquilax]

Players submit to their coaches, but only in matters of whatever sport they are playing, since the role of the coach is to improve their abilities at said sport. They don't submit to their coaches in life, which is what the bible passages I quoted earlier were saying women should do to their husbands.

I think you're being overly generous and letting slide a huge equivocation, here. Players don't "submit" to their coaches at all, they accept the guidance and training of a person appointed to a position based on demonstrable skill and merit, and moreover this is something they can opt out of, and that the coach can be fired from if they abuse their position or ultimately lack the skill to coach effectively.

At no point are coaches given assumed and unquestioned power over players based on physical attributes beyond their control rather than merit, nor are players given assumed less power due to the same. The people who make that comparison are simply talking nonsense and hoping nobody notices just how inappropriate it is.

[Ben Davis]

---

Women. Religion’s longest running victims.

Here we are in civilized and enlightened societies and cultures in high tech times and we are not smart enough to recognize that the world will continue in strife as long as we men do not give women full equality as a minimum to what men should do towards the care of families.

I hope you are astute enough to see this. If you do nothing then you know not what duty to your family should be. The women in your family deserve to be first class citizens.

Men are maintaining God’s curse against women. He will rule over you.

Men. Christians Catholics and Muslims. Free your women. It’s time.

Man up.

Please.

Regards
DL

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I'd just like to make a point on institutionalised sexism as apparent in the language used. Equality is not something that 'men can give to women' rather all people, irrespective of sex, should work together to ensure that those who would withhold equality do not get continue making the decisions as they directly cause harm & suffering by way of their imposition. That language of this type is not only common (e.g. possessive pronouns in reference to male/female relationships) but accepted is indicative of the depth to which sexism is institutionalised in almost every culture in across the world. We need to change the way we talk about sexism as well as actually addressing sexist practices.

[Bad Wolf]

A good way to think about stats reasoning is this: If we were talking about the Nazis, he could find a way to make it sound that they loved Jews.

[Losty]

The Christian women I have met have been much stronger than myself. I'm pretty sure they're doing great on their own and don't need some douchebag trying to change their lives.

I understand the sentiment. As an atheist I have met many many Christian women who...shocked me. As a Christian woman myself at one point I was neither that type of Christian woman, nor had I met one in person. Oh sure I had heard about them, but those women were "not really Christians". Maybe you never see this kind of issue(where women really do suffer because of Christianity) because of where you live or what kind of blinders you're wearing, but it is real.