Why Would God Hide?

[StealthySkeptic]

So because the Bible says it's impossible for God to simultaneously be physically visible and allow for free will to occur, that means it is? Again, the Bible doesn't really lend any authority for me.

I don't think the Bible has a lot to say on the subject. I was freestylin' Philosophy.

Nor was I appealing to any kind of biblical authority (a rather pointless exercise on an atheist forum).

The biblical references were simply to highlight that your question “couldn't he make it so that we knew of his existence but had the ability to disobey” was to be answered with a very clear, “Yes, in fact he has”.

Finally, I'm not running with an off-the-peg, done-and-dusted free will argument here. I'm pointing a direction towards which we might look.


Perhaps an illustration might help. In 'The Vicar of Dibley', Revd Geraldine is heading upstairs for a night of unmarried passion with a hunk. She looks at a picture of Jesus, says, “I don't think this is going to be your kind of evening”, and turns it to face the wall.

I think it is important to God that Geraldine should be able to do that, even if he might want not her to. That sort of example could perhaps point us towards the reasons why he might not want to be permanently visible.

If there was no eternal torture as a consequence for going our own way, especially for say having unmarried sex (which God doesn't like because...reasons), then your argument would make sense. As it is, however, God in your view deliberately leaves himself vague and allows people to go to hell. Some loving God he would be!

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Faith = Evidence = Fact = Knowledge = God

I think we're on to something here.

No. Faith is belief without evidence. Without evidence, you don't actually have knowledge of anything.

I think our man Godslayer was being sarcastic.

[snowtracks]

actually God reveals himself:
through nature --- for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen.
through a person’s conscience - the spirit, or mind. the sense of right and wrong testifies.
scripture is the His revelation.
through the person of Jesus Christ.

But when objections are made to these --particularly the first three-- then the excuses, justifications, rationalizations, and complex interpretations begin.

God reveals his invisible attributes through nature? Then smallpox is evidence that he's a horrific, abusive monster.

God reveals himself through a person's conscience? Then Charles Manson is evidence that god is a ruthless, maniacal killer.

God reveals himself through scripture? Hang on, let me find a copy of The Odyssey. He might come out only slightly deranged in this one.

God reveals himself through the person of Jesus Christ? And where would this person happen to be, at the moment?

free will is a good thing even though the exercise of it does result sometimes in a 'bad thing'; God didn't create the universe for robotic beings. when particular examples are given to prove a principle does one atheist see it and recognize that it is a logical fallacy and the kudos cabal is alerted to try to salvage the situation?

[Chad32]

It's odd when people say he didn't want us to be robots, but it seems like any expression of free will is forbidden. We're expected to do everything he says, without question. Anything less than absolute obedience is evil in his eyes. It makes no sense. Why givew us free will if we're not meant to be independent beings?

[Jenny A]

The answer to the "Hiding" question is the same as the answer to the "Knocking" post.

Moses knew God face to face, and even he blew it when he had to step out in faith, and speak to the Rock ( he blew it by smacking the rock ( a type of Christ) like he did before, when he was supposed to speak to it).

It is nearly like a game- and it is ALWAYS our move.
The blinders come off (or should I say- the revelation increases) as we play the game.
I hate to use the word- "Game" but another parallel escapes me.

Yes, He does "Hide" and we, like little kids playing "Hide and Seek" are supposed to seek.
Maybe that is why "Child- likeness" is commended.

Silly, when playing hide and go seek, it, sees the hiders then closes his eyes before seeking. He knows before hand that the hiders exist.

That's rather different than seeking god or fairies.

Your Knocking thread failed for the same reason. There's no reason to endlessly seek that which has show no sign of it's existence.

[dissily mordentroge]

Stealthy Skeptic "If there was no eternal torture as a consequence for going our own way, especially for say having unmarried sex (which God doesn't like because...reasons), then your argument would make sense. As it is, however, God in your view deliberately leaves himself vague and allows people to go to hell. Some loving God he would be!"
On the other hand, why this idea that 'God', if he/she/it exists must necessariliy be a loving God?
A casual reading of the Old Testament reveals a capricious, sadistic and vengeful entity whose moral compass swings in all directions.
However, this does give some support the claim made at Genesis Ch 1: V:27.

[Tonus]

free will is a good thing even though the exercise of it does result sometimes in a 'bad thing'; God didn't create the universe for robotic beings. when particular examples are given to prove a principle does one atheist see it and recognize that it is a logical fallacy and the kudos cabal is alerted to try to salvage the situation?

Not even an attempt to answer any of the points I made. Noted.

Free will results in something 'bad' if a person deviates in any way from god's rules of conduct. To the Christian this appears to be impossible to avoid, seeing as how every single human being who ever existed has sinned against god. The only exception being the time that god dressed himself in a human costume, perhaps to mock humanity for failing so badly at something that came so easily to god. Imagine that-- god was able to follow his own desires perfectly!

God may not have created the universe for robotic beings, but he certainly doesn't seem to have created it for humans, seeing as the one thing that makes us human is the one thing that puts us all on the negative side of god's ledger, without fail.

[dissily mordentroge]

To the Christian this appears to be impossible to avoid, seeing as how every single human being who ever existed has sinned against god.
God may not have created the universe for robotic beings, but he certainly doesn't seem to have created it for humans, seeing as the one thing that makes us human is the one thing that puts us all on the negative side of god's ledger, without fail.

One night many years ago I found myself at a party beside a very drunk catholic theologian and philosophy lecturer of the Roman kind. I put to him the simple question "How is it the Catholic church has such lasting power over it's members" The answer shocked me but does make a twisted kind of sense. 'How do you control the masses? Simple, invent a moral code so strict no-body can fully live by it, they weaken and sin then feel guilty. You've got them in your power"
Said theologian claimed when he'd sobered up he said no such thing. Never did learn if he was speaking for the Almighty, The Church Hierarchy or both.

[Brakeman]

But when objections are made to these --particularly the first three-- then the excuses, justifications, rationalizations, and complex interpretations begin.

God reveals his invisible attributes through nature? Then smallpox is evidence that he's a horrific, abusive monster.

God reveals himself through a person's conscience? Then Charles Manson is evidence that god is a ruthless, maniacal killer.

God reveals himself through scripture? Hang on, let me find a copy of The Odyssey. He might come out only slightly deranged in this one.

God reveals himself through the person of Jesus Christ? And where would this person happen to be, at the moment?

free will is a good thing even though the exercise of it does result sometimes in a 'bad thing'; God didn't create the universe for robotic beings. when particular examples are given to prove a principle does one atheist see it and recognize that it is a logical fallacy and the kudos cabal is alerted to try to salvage the situation?

Are you intentionally dodging the points Tonus made or do you not understand them? Seeing nature as theistic evidence is like looking at a pile of children's ABC blocks, you can read any message you like from the individual letters. Any particular person's interpretation will necessarily have to have an accompanying decoding rationale that is equally as invented as the purported message.

[MJ the Skeptical]

Faith = Evidence = Fact = Knowledge = God

I think we're on to something here.

No. Faith is belief without evidence. Without evidence, you don't actually have knowledge of anything.

But there are different definitions of evidence, faith and knowledge...

So, ah-ha. The theist logic stands, take that atheists!

[dissily mordentroge]

But there are different definitions of evidence, faith and knowledge...

So, if we wish to continue any such discussion in a meaningfull manner we need to agree on the definitions. Otherwise we're talking gibberish.
Thou therefore gird up they lions, and arise, and speak unto them all that I command thee:be not dismayed at their faces, lest I confound thee before them.
Jeremiah Ch:1 V:17.