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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 2:23 pm
(This post was last modified: September 22, 2014 at 3:01 pm by JesusHChrist.)
(September 22, 2014 at 2:18 pm)Tonus Wrote: I can just imagine a time 2,000 years into the future, when it is shown that there were real life people named Clark Kent, Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, and Diana Prince, and it will be used as proof that there was a pantheon of gods protecting the Earth from the evil Thanos, who may yet return if humanity doesn't turn from its destructive ways and give both its money and its nubile young virgins over to the new priesthood for "purification."
As it is written, so shall it be done!
(September 22, 2014 at 12:51 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Can you summarize his main points?
It's been a while, and I'm not sure this represents his current thinking, but what I remember is:
1. No contemporaneous writings
2. Paul meet a spiritual Jesus; not physical, and he is one of the earliest writers
3. There were multiple syncretisms happening at the time (watch the video). Jewish mythology mish-mashed with Hellenism was one variant.
For the rest, you'd have to watch vid or read his book.
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 3:09 pm
(September 22, 2014 at 12:51 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Can you summarize his main points?
I seem to remember them being something along the lines of:
- There are prior examples of religions where a god was originally spiritual, then was eventually retconned into being physical.
- There are prior examples of gods that got salvation cults attached to them.
- Taking various edits to the original texts into account and ignoring the Epistles that weren't penned by Paul, there is nothing in Paul's original writings that suggests Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human.
- He excludes the Gospels, although I don't remember all of the reasons (contradictory info and non-contemporary, but he may have had other complaints).
- There are some other writings of a spiritual Jesus that predate his alleged birth by a couple decades and talk about him fighting demons on the moon (or at least the celestial realm associated with the moon in Jewish cosmology), or some such.
So, I think the take-home is that he thinks YHWH had a salvation cult attached to him that later on turned the spiritual Jesus into a physical one to bolster their claims. These claims didn't happen until decades after Christ's alleged death.
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 3:17 pm
Robbypants did a much better job of summarizing.
Thank you.
I remember some of that now.
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 3:17 pm
Interesting. The third bullet point is the one I'd be most curious to learn more about. Just going off the top of the dome, isn't Philippians typically considered to be an authentic Pauline epistle and isn't that the one where he writes about Jesus as being born of a woman? Anyway, any additional text on this point that you can link me to?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 3:21 pm
Haha, he says a load of intellectual stuff to criticize the text, then the next thing is saying "so this is bullshit". I like his style.
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 3:25 pm
Are any of you familiar with Reza Aslan's take on Jesus? I'd like to read some rebuttals on his approach other than "he's a Muslim".
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:
"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."
For context, this is the previous verse:
"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 3:52 pm
Actually validating this might be impossible, after all there can be multiple people with that name during that time period, and even if we find a proof of one of those persons, there is no way verify if he was the one from the stories.
The only way to verify the book is by verifying the possibility of the illogical BS in the book.....which can only be done after one decides to thow out common sense and sanity, out of the window.
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 4:01 pm
(September 22, 2014 at 3:09 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: (September 22, 2014 at 12:51 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Can you summarize his main points?
I seem to remember them being something along the lines of:
- There are prior examples of religions where a god was originally spiritual, then was eventually retconned into being physical.
- There are prior examples of gods that got salvation cults attached to them.
- Taking various edits to the original texts into account and ignoring the Epistles that weren't penned by Paul, there is nothing in Paul's original writings that suggests Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human.
- He excludes the Gospels, although I don't remember all of the reasons (contradictory info and non-contemporary, but he may have had other complaints).
- There are some other writings of a spiritual Jesus that predate his alleged birth by a couple decades and talk about him fighting demons on the moon (or at least the celestial realm associated with the moon in Jewish cosmology), or some such.
So, I think the take-home is that he thinks YHWH had a salvation cult attached to him that later on turned the spiritual Jesus into a physical one to bolster their claims. These claims didn't happen until decades after Christ's alleged death.
That there are many plausible explanations for the Jesus cult that doesn't require any real Jesus to have existed is not in itself evidence that there never was a real Jesus. There are equally many plausible explanations for the Jesus cult which tales about a real Jesus dovetailing with pervasive gullibility to metastasize into the cult of Jesus.
One should not cherry pick the explanation that strengthens one's own point of view when equally good explanations in the opposite direction also,exist.
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 6:02 pm
Quote:n an established department of religion
As close to an oxymoron as you can get.
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RE: The (non) existence of Jesus
September 22, 2014 at 7:37 pm
(September 22, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: Actually validating this might be impossible, after all there can be multiple people with that name during that time period, and even if we find a proof of one of those persons, there is no way verify if he was the one from the stories.
The only way to verify the book is by verifying the possibility of the illogical BS in the book.....which can only be done after one decides to thow out common sense and sanity, out of the window. To be honest I had the same thought, it may be that yeshua was a common name then
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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