(September 30, 2014 at 2:02 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: I have to say I think the proof for God is the world aeound us, creation.
That's a popular view. The universe certainly seems to be an effect; so it's reasonable to suppose it has a cause, but if you go into it a little more deeply, it's not so simple.
For starters, the universe is our space-time continuum, within which, on a macro-scale, every effect must have a cause. It does not follow that the rules that apply within it also apply TO it; that is, we have no strong grounds to suppose the universe itself requires a cause. I suspect it has one, but it's far from a given, and one of the most likely candidates for a cause (vacuum fluctuation) is itself causeless.
Which brings us to exceptions to cause and effect at the quantum scale. Virtual particles (which make up the 'quantum foam') form spontaneously and atomic nuclei decay spontaneously; without a cause. Cause and effect hold at the macro scale, but they hold inductively: we know of no exceptions yet, so it is reasonable to hold it as true; but we can't PROVE that it's true.
In addition, claiming the universe proves God is affirming the consequent.
If God, then the universe.
The universe.
Therefore, God.
This has the same problem as:
If I am Halle Berry, I am beautiful.
I am beautiful.
Therefore, I am Halle Berry.
There are other possibilities than Halle Berry that can lead to beauty, and other causes than God that can lead to the universe.
Finally, there are a variety of plausible natural explanations for the origin of our universe that do not require the invocation of a supernatural intelligence, and it is likely that over time evidence will mount on the side of a particular one. Occam's razor says to go with the simplest explanation that accounts for all the facts.
Not to rain on your parade, it's just not as obvious as many theists like to make out it is.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
