The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot

[professor]

Drich did not say God caused Hitler's evil.
He said God brought the Jews back to their own land because of it.
Big difference.

[FatAndFaithless]

So...Hitler's evil was part of God's plan?

[abaris]

Drich did not say God caused Hitler's evil.
He said God brought the Jews back to their own land because of it.
Big difference.

Yeah, I know, I know. I heard Hagee saying it too. That's why I was talking about your minds doing the twist.

End times pornography, that's what it is.

[Strider]

Drich did not say God caused Hitler's evil.
He said God brought the Jews back to their own land because of it.
Big difference.

Sure, he did not explicitly state such. However, if it was god's will that the Jews would once again claim the holy land then why would it be incorrect to assume that the means to this reclaiming (enduring yet another brutal hardship) wasn't his will as well? Christians constantly proclaim that he has a plan, yes? Did he just sit around in his easy chair and say, "Hey! Now would be a great time to return the holy land to all of those rascally Jews!" after placidly observing the systematic annihilation of them by the Nazis?

[Nope]

[quote='Nope' pid='810226' dateline='1417701584']
The story has come up on a couple of threads here but I thought it would be helpful to provide the biblically sound summarization of the story.

Three dudes, who were secretly undercover angels, came to visit Abraham in his tent. God asked them if he should tell Abraham what he is going to do about Sodom (Genesis 18:17) Yep, bible god asked the angels for their advice.

Often times a good leader of men will involve their subordniates in a desision as a measure of good faith. This actually shows us that God reconizes the needs and wants of those who serve Him. Meaning we have been given a clue as to the nature of how God runs Heaven. In this case He looks to His subordinates to include them even in a small or trivial way so as to create a family type of atmosphere rather than a dictator state.

Neither god nor his angels are humans. God, specifically is supposed to be an all knowing, all powerful being who is so great that no one could live in his presence without loving him(hence the need for freewill) Are you saying that god and his angels are so much like us that he has to try to make the angels feel good by asking their opinion?

Are there no pregnant women or infants in Sodom? Surely, fetuses are innocent and must be saved at all cost. What about little kids? Does Sodom not have any kids or slaves that are forced to live in the city? Wouldn't they be innocent also?

If the men of Sodom were rape mob hungry for 'fresh meat' what makes you think all other potential targets in their own homes have not already been exploited?

What does that have to do with the fact that little children are innocent? Even if their fathers had raped them, the victims haven't done anything wrong. You are saying that in this imaginary Sodom, children are raped and so god punishes them along with their attackers.

You did a good job with the bible verses.

Thank you.

[Drich]

What "Modern God" Did was use the actions of Hitler's Germany to answer a 2000 year old prayer. In that Israel was given their Holy Land back.

Just like in many of the prophetic books the Jews were scattered or held in captivity, they endure tremoundous hardship and then God gives them another chance, by returning them to their Holy Land.

I am going to flatly ignore everything else said.

Are you seriously suggesting that god was somehow answering a prayer through the actions of Hitler and his attempted genocide of the Jews simply because it ended with them regaining "the holy land"? God subjected them to hardship in the form of mass murder and torture of the most obscene level and their reward for living through it is a plot of dusty land surrounded by enemies? That is absolutely monstrous and sick beyond words.

You never went to Sunday school as a kid did you?

---

Are you seriously suggesting that god was somehow answering a prayer through the actions of Hitler and his attempted genocide of the Jews simply because it ended with them regaining "the holy land"? God subjected them to hardship in the form of mass murder and torture of the most obscene level and their reward for living through it is a plot of dusty land surrounded by enemies? That is absolutely monstrous and sick beyond words.

You grew up in the South and never heard that beauty before? I grew up thousands of miles away and am very familiar with that claim. Read it on the internet, heard it being made on the internet, usually by some raving televangelist foaming from the mouth. And it's not the first time, this pile of steaming shit comes up on this very board. Not sure, if it's Drich's favorite aroma, but there are other, who fit the bill equally well.

It's disgusting christian lunacy at it's finest. Some kind of self delusions so they can still believe in their benevolent sky daddy, even making some sense in the most atrocious of situations.

And don't you hear the trumpets, that's Armageddon. See, it's not out of love for the jewish people that they're so crazy about a jewish state in Israel. It's because of some ancient end of days prophecy.

I briefly considered to adress the rest of bullshit in Drich's post, but given the amount covering the floor, it's more than Hercules could have handled when cleaning the stables of Augias.

Wow I never heard that before I first posted it a few years back. I was in a study on the book of judges and it dawned on me that the stuff Israel went through with hitler did not compare to what happened in judges. Or just about anywhere else in the OT they weren't being told to take out a nation or two.

I guess the Holy Spirit doesn't play favorites. He gives understanding to those who seek it.

---

You grew up in the South and never heard that beauty before? I grew up thousands of miles away and am very familiar with that claim. Read it on the internet, heard it being made on the internet, usually by some raving televangelist foaming from the mouth. And it's not the first time, this pile of steaming shit comes up on this very board. Not sure, if it's Drich's favorite aroma, but there are other, who fit the bill equally well.

It's disgusting christian lunacy at it's finest. Some kind of self delusions so they can still believe in their benevolent sky daddy, even making some sense in the most atrocious of situations.

And don't you hear the trumpets, that's Armageddon. See, it's not out of love for the jewish people that they're so crazy about a jewish state in Israel. It's because of some ancient end of days prophecy.

I briefly considered to adress the rest of bullshit in Drich's post, but given the amount covering the floor, it's more than Hercules could have handled when cleaning the stables of Augias.

I'll admit this is the first time I've heard that argument. Considering where I grew up and still live, that is an insane claim even judged against the standard crazy I have to deal with on a regular basis. It is appalling. How could an individual worship a supposed magnanimous, omnipotent entity that would allow wholesale slaughter to occur for some inane end result such as land ownership to come about? How gruesome and dreadful a claim.

And Christians claim that atheists have no morals. What a laugh.

Indeed, because there is the other side of the coin to consider as well. In that you need to seriously look at what Israel was made to endure before the NATIONS OF THE WORLD Would Allow The Jews To Become Their Own Soverign Nation Again.

In short bus talk, it was man who demanded the jews pay this price before they could be a real nation again, and it was man who collected the blood needed so they could be a nation again, It was God who kept them Together the 2000 years needed before man's heart would soften enough to give the Jews back what was taken from them.

---

So...Hitler's evil was part of God's plan?

Was pharaoh's evil apart of God's plan?

[Minimalist]

that is an insane claim even judged against the standard crazy I have to deal with on a regular basis.

No one does crazy like drippy does crazy.

[Drich]

Neither god nor his angels are humans. God, specifically is supposed to be an all knowing, all powerful being who is so great that no one could live in his presence without loving him(hence the need for freewill) Are you saying that god and his angels are so much like us that he has to try to make the angels feel good by asking their opinion?

as I pointed out in your 'free will' thread free will is an Ancient Greek construct/philosophy and not a biblically based principle.

We are all potential servants/slaves to the living God. In this life we have been given only one real choice to make, and that is to seek attonement for sin or remain in it/ slave to it separating us from, God creation and eternal servitude. The same type of servitude we see here with the back and forth between God and his angles, abraham and even to a lessor degree lot.

What does that have to do with the fact that little children are innocent? Even if their fathers had raped them, the victims haven't done anything wrong. You are saying that in this imaginary Sodom, children are raped and so god punishes them along with their attackers.

the fact that these children were innocent was my point.

What would be the best actions of a loving Heavenly Father? To bring these Children home, and directly care for them, or to let them fend for themselves in a world designed to consume women and children?

You did a good job with the bible verses.

Thank you.
[/quote]
hock:

Oh, yeah forgot for a second that you are still new.

[Nope]

Drich,

My husband's mother was born in Vienna, Austria. Her parents sent her oldest sister(only ten) to England and fled with my year old, future mother-in-law. When they reached the United States, some officials tried to talk my poor grandmother-in-law into giving up her baby for adoption. They lost a large portion of their family to the Nazis. Sometimes, it is difficult to comprehend that if they had waited in Austria, my husband would not exist.

I am going to guess that your statements are because you aren't really seeing the victims of the Holocaust as humans. Six million is a large, almost incomprehensible number and that is just the number of Jewish people who died. There were also other groups that suffered and died, not to mention the many soldiers who gave their lives and the families who had to exist without a loved one.

There is someone in your life that you would die to protect. Maybe it is a child, your mother, a spouse, but the idea that this person would suffer is like a kick in the gut to you. Now imagine that this person is stripped and marched into gas chambers to die terrified, or that they slowly starve to death in front of your eyes. Worse, you survive and have to create a new life after the war. If you have ever really loved someone, you would realize that the land of Israel is not worth the price of that one life.

When I was a Christian, I could not engage myself in putting myself so fully into the shoes of another person. Doing so would have shaken my view that god was just and always right. Like you, the need to prove that my god was right made me hold some vile and disgusting views.

[Strider]

Indeed, because there is the other side of the coin to consider as well. In that you need to seriously look at what Israel was made to endure before the NATIONS OF THE WORLD Would Allow The Jews To Become Their Own Soverign Nation Again.

In short bus talk, it was man who demanded the jews pay this price before they could be a real nation again, and it was man who collected the blood needed so they could be a nation again, It was God who kept them Together the 2000 years needed before man's heart would soften enough to give the Jews back what was taken from them.

Maybe that's sensible "short bus talk" if that bus is headed to a private Christian school.

Nothing you say makes sense to me. I cannot debate with you on your terms because your arguments are dominated by bizarre biblical precepts that deal in the supernatural. Your assertions are bereft of any logical basis. It is extremely similar to the other Christian-spewed gibberish I hear; there are a lot of words but nothing is actually said.