The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot

[FatAndFaithless]

So...Hitler's evil was part of God's plan?

Was pharaoh's evil apart of God's plan?

I was the one asking, you tell me.

[Drich]

Drich,

My husband's mother was born in Vienna, Austria. Her parents sent her oldest sister(only ten) to England and fled with my year old, future mother-in-law. When they reached the United States, some officials tried to talk my poor grandmother-in-law into giving up her baby for adoption. They lost a large portion of their family to the Nazis. Sometimes, it is difficult to comprehend that if they had waited in Austria, my husband would not exist.

I am going to guess that your statements are because you aren't really seeing the victims of the Holocaust as humans. Six million is a large, almost incomprehensible number and that is just the number of Jewish people who died. There were also other groups that suffered and died, not to mention the many soldiers who gave their lives and the families who had to exist without a loved one.

When I was younger I often wonder why I couldn't have a normal family like everyone else.. Normal in that my mother is from korea, and she use to tell us that we were korean royality 100 years ago, before Japan annexed Korea in WWI. At the time Japan was an Ally to the winning side and they got to keep their spoils of war. As a result the Japanese went on a korean holocaust that never gets spoken of. Basically they killed everyone in the culture who did not want to be oppressed by the Japanese, or if they had rank, land or title, or anyone who could not be turned into a slave to the empire. Japan saw korea as a raw materials resource, and used koreans much like hitler used the jews in labor camps, but there wasn't a set of camps it was the whole nation.

My grandparents were 9 and 10 at the time korea was annexed, and as life would have it both of their parents were killed, and they were put to work (as everyone else from that village) in rice fields. (the rice fields my grandfather's family use to own.) Instead of providing rice and veggies for their family and village they all were forced to produced food for Japan's Imperial Army. that meant many died of starvation. Including the rest of my Grand Father's family. (Brothers and sisters/9 total.) Oh, and there was another use for koreans the Japanese had.. or rather a use they had for women and girls...

So when the soldiers came for their food the women and children hid. My grandmother via my mother use to tell these stories of when the Japanese soldiers came the women and girls would dive down into the sewers. Where they stayed for days.. The problem? young mothers also had to take their babies. The problem with that is when the babies started to cry the mothers were forced to silence them or risk everyone being caught. If a baby could not be silenced the mother was expected to kill the child, and they ALL did what was expected of them. The alternitive was much worse. My grandfather's little brother was put in a sack and swung around and beaten up against a tree. He lived for a while but both of his legs were broken and never set right. When they found him they used him for sword practice.

These were my bed time stories growing up. They were told to me constantly to remind me of how luckie I was, even if we did have the stuff other people had at least we did not have to live in fear, that we always had enough to eat even if we didn't like it, that I should love and appreciate my sisters because they weren't beat/broken or dead...
My Korean Grandparents lived with us till the died, so I got this drilled into me all the time.

I share all of that mess with you to say, I completly get it. And I can imagine because I have spent most of my life think of that very thing.

I also can Imagine if me or my family went through all of that for nothing. I can also imagine somewhat that if me and my family going back 2000 years were a people without a nation. That if we were subject to live under the will or under the rule of another nation for all that time, Never having a place where we were totaly free to be who we were meant to be, that i would happily give my life so my children could live in their own freedom. I do not say this lightly. I also have spoken to enough hard core jews to know they do and believe the same thing. That many if not all devout Jews from this time to the time of Christ would given their lives if it meant future generations could go home and live in Isreal.

So again to pay the price of 6 million dead, is a very steep price. But, again this was not what God demanded. it is what we as a world demanded to see before we would give Back what was taken from that people so long ago.

God's role in all of this was agin to keep the jews together for 2000+ years (Never in the history of the world as a people survived that long on foreign soild, and not be assimilated into another culture) and He ensured the right side won to make the homecomming possible.

When I was a Christian, I could not engage myself in putting myself so fully into the shoes of another person. Doing so would have shaken my view that god was just and always right. Like you, the need to prove that my god was right made me hold some vile and disgusting views.

I think your confused about my position on God, this world and our lives here.

God turned this world over to us. Meaning we were responsiable for this world and everything in it. If we stayed to his plan everything would be as you saw God and the world. But one of our first acts was the hand the keys over to satan. In truth this world is the closest thing satan will get to his own realm to rule. Most people think He runs hell. but that is not true according to scripture. He is sent to Hell to be punished for eternity. Here Satan is the father of sin. The same sin we are all slaves to. so in essence He controls sin, therefore controls us to a degree. Redemption/attonement breaks the bond sin has on our soul.

Even so this world is physical in nature and as such Satan has authority over it through those of us who do not want to break our bonds to sin.

Making things like the holocaust possible. It's not that I see everything in this world as being just and or having to be right. As you can imagine from a very young age I knew things were not just and always right. Even so I could still see 'just and right' through the best evil efforts of man. This could not be explained as it did not logically make any sense. How can Pure sin hate and evil ever yeild anything just or good unless something/one had more influence over sin and evil..

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Was pharaoh's evil apart of God's plan?

I was the one asking, you tell me.

Your answer lies in the answer to my question

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Indeed, because there is the other side of the coin to consider as well. In that you need to seriously look at what Israel was made to endure before the NATIONS OF THE WORLD Would Allow The Jews To Become Their Own Soverign Nation Again.

In short bus talk, it was man who demanded the jews pay this price before they could be a real nation again, and it was man who collected the blood needed so they could be a nation again, It was God who kept them Together the 2000 years needed before man's heart would soften enough to give the Jews back what was taken from them.

Maybe that's sensible "short bus talk" if that bus is headed to a private Christian school.

Nothing you say makes sense to me. I cannot debate with you on your terms because your arguments are dominated by bizarre biblical precepts that deal in the supernatural. Your assertions are bereft of any logical basis. It is extremely similar to the other Christian-spewed gibberish I hear; there are a lot of words but nothing is actually said.

what don't you understand specifically?

[abaris]

Was pharaoh's evil apart of God's plan?

So let's go there for a moment, even though historians and even rabbis agree nowadays that the story of the exodus has no base in reality.

The bible said, god hardened pharaos heart. Doesn't make sense, since god obviously wanted the jews to leave egypt, but it's obviously his plan.

[FatAndFaithless]

I was the one asking, you tell me.

Your answer lies in the answer to my question

Can you please just answer the question, Drips? Are you saying that Hitler's evil and the holocaust was a part of God's plan?

[Drich]

Was pharaoh's evil apart of God's plan?

So let's go there for a moment, even though historians and even rabbis agree nowadays that the story of the exodus has no base in reality.

The bible said, god hardened pharaos heart. Doesn't make sense, since god obviously wanted the jews to leave egypt, but it's obviously his plan.

So the question then becomes did pharroah's harden heart cause him to do evil, or was it the evil in Pharroah's heart what allowed God to harden his heart in the first place?

Hint: The answer is in the reason Pharroah did not let the jews go when first asked.

So then God used the existing evil of pharroah to not only allow the Jews to leave, but set them up with the riches and supplies needed for the next 40 years. For the egyptians they needed to see the suffering of the plagues inorder to give the jews what they needed for their journey. God used the very evil Pharroah wanted to use to keep the jews, to set them free and supplythem for the next 40 years.

This is also true with hitler. Again the world needed to see 6 million dead jews before they acted, and appearently we needed to see that many dead to continue to support them while their enemies attack them. if not 8.2 million could be on the chopping block now.