Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 2:51 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
#1
The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
The story has come up on a couple of threads here but I thought it would be helpful to provide the biblically sound summarization of the story.

Three dudes, who were secretly undercover angels, came to visit Abraham in his tent. God asked them if he should tell Abraham what he is going to do about Sodom (Genesis 18:17) Yep, bible god asked the angels for their advice.

In verse 20. God tells Abraham that there have been complaints about Sodom so he is going to check it out himself because somehow an omnipotent god can't just know everything.

There are several verses where god and Abraham negotiate how many innocent people are worth saving. Abraham gets god down to ten people.

Are there no pregnant women or infants in Sodom? Surely, fetuses are innocent and must be saved at all cost. What about little kids? Does Sodom not have any kids or slaves that are forced to live in the city? Wouldn't they be innocent also?

Chapter 19

Two angels stroll in to Sodom. Despite the fact that this city that is so dangerous that it has to be destroyed, Lot feels comfortable enough to sit out in the open.I realize that sitting at the gates was what well respected members of the community did back then but how could a 'righteous man' be respected in such a horrible community? Modern god didn't even wipe out Germany for killing his chosen people. (sorry, to Godwin this story)How bad can Sodom be if Lot can sit out in the open? Besides, what kind of subjects could a good man discuss with a bunch of men that like to rape guests?

There is a back and forth as Lot tries to convince the angels to come stay at his home. Originally, the angels wanted to sleep in the square. Finally, Lot convinces them and they go to his house.

ALL the men in Sodom, both young and old ,go to Lot's house and demand Lot's two guests so that they can have sex with them. I would assume that this meant rape but the KJV uses the term "to know them". Genesis 19:5


Lot begs the men not to attack his guests but offers his two virginal daughters instead. The bible doesn't say how the two girls felt because.. pfft, women. Apparently, it doesn't occur to Lot to offer himself. The townsmen say they won't listen to Lot because he came to them as a foreigner. (verse 19) When Lot first arrived at the city was there a rape and greet for him too? If so, why did he stay? Has this happened before? Again, why did he stay? I thought that Lot was so respected that he sat at the city's gates but the crowd seems to have zero respect for him because he is a foreigner.

The angels pull Lot back inside and blind the men. They ask Lot if he has any in laws that live in the city and tell him that he should urge them to leave. Um....the angels came from an all knowing god. Shouldn't they be know whether Lot had someone else in the city he wanted to save?

Lot goes to have a conversation with his sons-in-law...wait....I thought that ALL the men of Sodom gathered at Lot's door. That means that his married daughters' husbands were outside blind. His blind son-in-laws thought he was joking.verse 14

In the morning, the angels wake Lot and his family up. The angels take the hands of the family and flee. Lot's wife looks at the destruction and turns to a pillar of salt. What kind of destruction could be happening that would turn someone to a pillar of salt? I could understand if their eyes burnt out from the sight but why a pillar of salt?

Lot begs to go into the little city of Zoar and god agrees to not destroy.verses 18-21.

For some reason Lot leaves Zoar and heads into the mountains. Does god not keep his word about destroying Zoar or did Lot not trust god?

Questions about Sodom. How did this city even function with so many individuals running around raping visitors? Wouldn't travelers and merchants begin to avoid the city, after awhile? I am going to guess that they didn't put that kind of thing in their travel brochure but still, word would have gotten out. Why did Lot marry his daughters to men who lived in Sodom? Were you born evil in Sodom? There must have been children in the city

I will put the rest of the story up later. If anyone disagrees with what I wrote then please explain your reasons and use bible verses. For anyone who hasn't read the bible, yes, this is the actual story.
Reply
#2
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
Ezekiel 16, verse 49

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Reply
#3
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
(December 4, 2014 at 10:48 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Ezekiel 16, verse 49

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

As Nope already pointed out. Makes no sense, since trade would have been rather brisk if anyone coming to the city faced the danger of being ass raped. Idleness and fulness of bread don't come from nothing.

But you left out the most inspiring part of the Lot story.

Quote: And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. .... And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
Reply
#4
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
In Genesis 18:17 it seems to me that god is thinking to himself whether or not to tell Abraham of his plans. He then decides to let him know. The god of the OT is very human in his ways and manners, and that is not the first time he is willing to discuss his plans with a mere human (as I recall, in another part of the OT Moses manages to get god to change his mind about a plan he had). How does the writer know what god is thinking? Err, well...

The initial meeting between Lot and the angels looks like a way of establishing that Lot was a good guy. He greets them in a polite manner (does them obeisance) and offers the hospitality of his home, even insisting that he will not allow these visitors to sleep outside. When the crowd gathers and demands that he turn them over, he offers up his daughters. This is where we get an understanding of the culture of the time. The scene is meant to show the extent of Lot's generosity and hospitality, in that he places the safety and well being of his guests even above that of his daughters. But it simply serves as a reminder of the role of women in that culture: they primarily have value as property, and in this case, as barter.

One cannot help but note that Lot does not offer up his own wife. He offers up his daughters, who were already promised to two other men as wives (the story refers to them as sons-in-law). In fact, up to this point Lot's wife has not been mentioned at all. When the angels tell him to abandon the city, they say "(w)hom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place." They don't mention his wife at all! She is finally mentioned in the next verse, and only a couple more times after that. Her name is never given. You get the impression that she was added at some later time to give the story a bit of a surprise, some shock value. There is no indication that her death had any impact on Lot or his family-- the next part of the story is where the daughters decide to get him drunk so that he may impregnate them.

So remember, kids-- looking back at the destruction of a wicked city means death. Raping your father? Oh well, girls will be girls!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
Reply
#5
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
Did the daughters both get pregnant the first time that they had sex with Dad? If, like most people it took more then one chance each for the girls to get pregnant, why did Lot accept alcohol from them again? Also, where did they get the alcohol? Couldn't the angels just have reappeared and said, "Hey, girl, the world isn't ending. Remember, you just came from the town of Zoar. There are still men around for you to make babies with so don't rape daddy." If we take the story literally, then god punishes someone for being curious and doesn't punish rapists.

I don't understand how anyone can read the bible and see it as any more then mythology. As fiction it is still a weird story but does show how important hospitality was to the Hebrews. I have met people who believe that this story should be taught as historical fact.
Reply
#6
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
The area of Sodom had slime pits.
That would be where petroleum is located.

America is a bit like Sodom, having had a wealth of oil.
As was mentioned correctly, the sins of Sodom were identical to the sins of America.
Pride, abundance of bread, idleness.....
Notice how pride is celebrated in the US.
The sin of pride is the exaltation of self.
The same sin that caused Lucifer to become Satan.

The homosexual community has various Pride Weeks. Kind of fits doesn't it?
Another parallel now, is having a homo president and his push for homo marriage.

I think you left out the part where the angels said to Lot, "We can't do anything until you are out of here"
(My paraphrase). I see another parallel coming. Those right with God are removed first.

Over where Sodom and it's sister city were is an abundance of sulfur nodules.
The salt mentioned is frequently found (I am told) in a Salt Dome over oil deposits.
I guess the angels lit a fuse somewhere and it went up.

These stories are given as examples.
Alas, history repeats because of the consistency of Mankind.

My personal notes:
Of course God knew His plan for Sodom. He chooses to inform His friends of His plans.
In another place it says, God will do nothing except He tells His prophets His plan.
As for Lot, there are no perfect people in the bloodline of Adam.
Lot may have had enough confidence in knowing how homo the towns men were that they would reject sex with women. Thus his offer.
Reply
#7
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
Professor, Rape is a form of domination and humiliation involving sex. The crowd outside Lot's door were probably not for the most part gay men. The text says that all the men gathered at Lot's door and I doubt that every man in Sodom was gay.

If I believed in the bible god and hadn't been influenced by Western culture, I would read the verses in Ezekiel and Genesis together and come to the conclusion that Sodom was punished not for their sexual practices but because they weren't hospitable to strangers, ignored the poor and were prideful and not because of homosexuality. The ancient Romans and Greeks were pretty open to homosexuality also and god didn't smite their towns.
Reply
#8
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
(December 4, 2014 at 12:31 pm)professor Wrote: Another parallel now, is having a homo president and his push for homo marriage.
Well, you are right that some things don't ever seem to change.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
Reply
#9
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
What is it about religious people and sexuality? they're obsessed.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








Reply
#10
RE: The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot
(December 4, 2014 at 1:14 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: What is it about religious people and sexuality? they're obsessed.

Probably because a lot (most?) religions teach people that sex is bad, along with anything else that people can derive pleasure from. Pleasure comes in the afterlife, after toiling away in a meager existence here for reasons that I'm sure have nothing to do with being faithful drones to the political machine that is organized religion.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Raw Story gives a voice to atheists.... Brian37 8 1599 October 17, 2018 at 2:51 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  Jerusalem, rapture, the coming of christ, and crazy evangelicals WinterHold 9 1287 May 25, 2018 at 9:42 pm
Last Post: Jehanne
  Religion: Just Plain Crazy Minimalist 10 2275 September 26, 2017 at 8:01 am
Last Post: Foxaèr
  The people of Lot? Sodom? Pompeii?? WinterHold 36 9031 September 12, 2017 at 6:07 am
Last Post: paulpablo
  Maybe I'm being crazy... BrokenQuill92 18 1872 November 21, 2016 at 10:14 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  Just to show that the 'Murricans don't have the monopoly on christian crazy GUBU 5 1687 April 13, 2016 at 2:31 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  The Last Wish - Love Story miaharun 0 1164 January 4, 2016 at 7:53 am
Last Post: miaharun
  A Sad Story miaharun 10 2823 December 28, 2015 at 9:20 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  My story! I am an Ex-Muslim, became and Atheist. I was visited by an Angel of God. Prince 242 26085 June 19, 2015 at 9:01 pm
Last Post: nihilistcat
  Stupidest religious "true story" you've ever heard?... EccentricAlien 37 9501 March 29, 2015 at 10:31 am
Last Post: Thackerie



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)