I work for a church and I can't stand it any more.

[abaris]

In their view (which I disagree with but respect) people who do not believe in God are destined to hell, so, if I tell them I am no longer a Christian, some of my closest friends and family will now have to deal with the burden that I am going to hell. That simply is not something I would want to put on them, it would be selfish.

Should make them reflect on the absurd concept of heaven and hell, though. If some loved one is going to hell in their minds, how could they be happy going to heaven, knowing this? And if they forget about that loved one and their torment, since heaven knows no sadness as is often claimed by christians, are they really themselves anymore or is losing one's identity a prerequirement for enterin heaven?

That's just another one of these mental acrobatics necessary to make the pieces of the puzzle fit.

[robvalue]

I wonder if it bothers the christians that all the people born in the wrong countries are going to hell? Do you think they give that a lot of thought? And to whether that makes the slightest bit of sense?

---

You said you were an atheist for a while strawdawg. Did you then go around murdering, raping and stealing? If not, why was that?

[abaris]

I wonder if it bothers the christians that all the people born in the wrong countries are going to hell? Do you think they give that a lot of thought? And to whether that makes the slightest bit of sense?

Funny, you mention that. But still a kid, a very little one at that, it was one of the first things bothering me about christianity. I gave it a lot of thought and had a lot of pity for those people and it kept nagging at my mind.

[Aoi Magi]

Fair point, however, it is not hatred, loathing, disownment etc. that I fear. I put myself in their shoes. In their view (which I disagree with but respect) people who do not believe in God are destined to hell, so, if I tell them I am no longer a Christian, some of my closest friends and family will now have to deal with the burden that I am going to hell. That simply is not something I would want to put on them, it would be selfish.

You do understand that your "close friends and family" are already carrying the burden of fear of heaven and hell in their hearts, not just for you but themselves too, right? You are letting them live their lives in an imaginary fear despite knowing the truth... isn't that selfish?
You are not only lying to yourself but to your loved ones, just so that you can be a part of the make-believe world and enjoy the community, isn't that selfish?

If my friends and family are drug addicts enjoying the temporary bliss and happiness, and I drag them to rehab, would that be selfish? Or is it more selfish if I provided the drugs myself just so that I can see their fake smiles?

[Tonus]

Fair point, however, it is not hatred, loathing, disownment etc. that I fear. I put myself in their shoes. In their view (which I disagree with but respect) people who do not believe in God are destined to hell, so, if I tell them I am no longer a Christian, some of my closest friends and family will now have to deal with the burden that I am going to hell. That simply is not something I would want to put on them, it would be selfish.

That is the thing that makes religion so harmful, though. Their belief in something that is imaginary yet demands such devotion that they might be emotionally scarred if they feel that they did not measure up. Or that causes them to turn away from loved ones, to the point of shunning them completely as if they were enemies. We are social creatures, and many religions exploit that in very cruel ways.

[robvalue]

I understand the desire not to upset close ones by "revealing" that you are going to hell. But I'd like to present a couple of points.

The longer we, as a society, pander to the delusions of the brainwashed, the longer people are going to stay brainwashed. And the easier it will be for more people to become brainwashed. The more people believe something, and the stronger they believe it, the more credibility it gets. Logically this should not be the case (argument from popularity fallacy) but sadly a lot of people are very easily swayed to conform.

Also, being close to the person gives you a unique opportunity to show why the beliefs are so stupid. They know you are a good person (I assume) and as such, would they want to worship a God who sends you to hell just for requiring evidence for your decisions? Do they think it's fair that you'll be punished just for not going through rituals, when you're spending your life actually being a good person? Isn't that what should count?

By keeping the delusions going, we're feeding the idea that being a good person is not what is important. Believers probably have convinced themselves that decent behaviour that benefits others is a part of their religion, but faced with this dilemma, they are more likely to see that the rules are arbitrary and at odds with real decency.

Also: they don't even follow their own fucking rules. This is mind boggling obvious to me. If they did, they'd be dead or in jail now.

[fr0d0]

You're pretending to be a christian to have the job right OP? Doesn't that make you a complete hypocrite? No sympathy sorry.

Yea ok instead of being judgmental, why not try understanding why minorities of ANY LABEL stay in the closet.

This isn't just about him, or atheists for that matter. You go against a social norm or suddenly up and leave, people notice and can be quite cruel and vindictive for no good reason.

This happened for a long time with mixed race marriages, and gays still to this day in many parts still have to keep it to themselves, especially teens.

Over my 13 years of being on line, I've seen countless stories of atheists catching shit from family and co workers and neighbors. I have had someone try to get me fired on a job. I have known a couple that got kicked out of their apartment after the owner found out. My own younger sister caught shit from our family when she came out.

It is even worse for atheist teens who by law still have to live at home with fundamentalist parents. I've seen many stories about that too. It is heartbreaking to tell them that the best they can do is put up with it until they are old enough to get out on their own.



This happens worldwide too. If you lived as a Muslim in an Arab state and decided to become a Christian the same thing would happen to you as it would if you were a Muslim and decided you were an atheist.

You want to know what we go through? Put on an atheist shirt or hat, walk around in public, you will get looks and or comments. But it is far worse than simply dirty looks for many.

You've been here how long? You haven't been booted. We may judge your claims, but you are not your claims. And every single one of us here has family and friends and co workers we love who believe. None of us would disown them for that reason.

My mother is still a Catholic, she knows exactly how I feel about religion. I don't have to sugar coat anything with her. But I still love her and she has always been my biggest supporter. But if you are a minority in any given society for whatever reason, it can be hard if not oppressive if you don't fit in.

I am lucky, but just like blacks and women and gays had a hard time. And just like Muslims have a hard time in the west. Christians and atheists would have a hard time in the east.

I'm a minority. Would you respect me if I didn't stand up for what I believe? Should you?

I'm not giving the guy grief because he's standing up against oppression. The guy is profiting from his dishonesty. I could easily profit from work that is immoral. Drugs, sex etc would make me lots of money. But I don't do them because they undermine my beliefs. I choose not to take those paths.

This guy, for whatever reason, took a dishonest path. He clearly has the choice to do the right thing.

What price do you put on doing the right thing Brian? How low do you go before you have the luxury of conscience? What's your price?

[robvalue]

How is he being dishonest? He got hired to play some instruments, and that's what he did. I assume they didn't require him to take an oath of faith as well.

Just being alive is a constant compromise between idealism and harsh reality. Very often it's a choice between "bad" and "less bad" options. Finding a job that you agree with ethically 100% is more or less impossible. But we do our best. And the OP is changing his mind about his career decisions, based on developing feelings about the church.

[fr0d0]

I'm glad he's developing a conscience. That's a step in the right direction. He's changing his mind about his double standards and discovering that he can't continue with the hypocrisy.

It looks to me like he fakes belief to stay in the job. Presumably that's how he got the job too, or why the deceit?

No I've never done work that causes me to compromise my ethics.

[robvalue]

How do you know he fakes belief? He may never have been asked about his belief as part of his employment. Or if he was, he may have been honest when he first started. It's a weird kind of standard for a job where your actions don't matter, only what you think. That would be pretty much uniquely anything to do with religion, if that's supposed to be a valid argument.

Also, as a secondary lame defence, people lie all the time to get jobs. Maybe that's not great, but I don't consider this any worse. Not saying he did lie though.

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. He was doing his job and doing it well as far as we know. A lot of jobs can involve actual lying, anyhow.

What he is doing is not hurting anyone, it's the indoctrination of children that is the harm.