Indoctrination & Mental Gymnastics

[The Grand Nudger]

IDK, I remember better tunes from years back. In the last few months though, yeah, pretty much business as usual.

[Godscreated]

In many cases, losing faith in Christianity can cause serious problems like: depression, divorce, persistent fear of hell, etc.

There are lots of happy, successful, intelligent Christians.

It's like a tumor. If the tumor is benign, then maybe it's better not to perform surgery. That is my attitude with my Christian family and friends.

Well that is true, christianity is more a hindrance on people then a strenght.

That's only an opinion base on your failed experience with Christianity.

I for one feel much less depressed sense I left the cult as I can much more objectively examine my own purpose and self.

I think subjectively choose, instead of the bold by me.

Not to mention feeling better that no one is being tortured.

No one was going to be tortured when you went to church, and just because you stopped doesn't change the fact that hell is real, what makes you believe your disbelief can change anything prior to your disbelief.

GC

[KevinM1]

No one was going to be tortured when you went to church, and just because you stopped doesn't change the fact that hell is real, what makes you believe your disbelief can change anything prior to your disbelief.

GC

Prove it. And I mean prove. Your feelings and the Bible aren't evidence.

[Godscreated]

No one was going to be tortured when you went to church, and just because you stopped doesn't change the fact that hell is real, what makes you believe your disbelief can change anything prior to your disbelief.

GC

Prove it. And I mean prove. Your feelings and the Bible aren't evidence.

Hell is not a place of torture, you'll not find that word in scripture, go try. Hell is a place of self choice and self punishment, God does neither, again biblical. The Bible might not be evidence to you, but then who are you to make that judgement for those who know what it says, if you knew it's content you would not have had to ask such simple questions. Who do you think you are to try and limit my scope of truth.

GC

[KevinM1]

Prove it. And I mean prove. Your feelings and the Bible aren't evidence.

Hell is not a place of torture, you'll not find that word in scripture, go try. Hell is a place of self choice and self punishment, God does neither, again biblical.

Matthew:
13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark:
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Revelation:
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

Using your own book, people are sent to hell by the angels who, last I checked, work on the behalf of god. Moreover, hell is described several times as being a place of fire. The bible may not say the word 'torture', but 'tormented' is close enough.

Logically, it's not a place of self-punishment, as no sinner would want to be cast into the furnace. No, that's god's doing. You may try to defend it with the weak argument about people having the choice to believe in god, but the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with your assertion that hell actually exists.

The Bible might not be evidence to you, but then who are you to make that judgement for those who know what it says, if you knew it's content you would not have had to ask such simple questions. Who do you think you are to try and limit my scope of truth.

GC

Blah blah blah, yes, I know you're deeply offended. Who I am is a skeptic that needs more than the circular logic found in your religion's instruction manual to be convinced by what you say. So far, you're doing a piss poor job in the apologetics game.

[RobbyPants]

Her: I'm saying if people have the chance to accept Christ and they do then they're saved. But if they reject him then they're not... But if they never had the chance to know Him then they probably aren't condemned because they had no way of knowing.

This line of reasoning is always so weird to me. I understand the notion that they don't want their god to looks like a monster, but this apologetic has some very bizarre consequences.

Her stated position is that people who did not know about God have a 0% chance of going to hell, and people that do know about God now have a choice to accept or reject him. This means that people who know about God have a non-zero chance of going to hell. So, by evangelizing to people, you are increasing their chance of going to hell.

The highest moral good is to stop telling people about God. The more standard apologetic I hear on this topic is that the Holy Spirit comes to everyone in some undeniable way, and it is up to them to accept or reject God. How you can reject something that is "undeniable" is beyond me, but that's beside the point. You can look at a map and have a pretty good idea what religion a person is by knowing where they're from. So, even if this is all true, the Holy Spirit is demonstrably less effective than regional demographics and religious upbringing. So, people teaching people is way more effective than the "undeniable" influence of the Holy Spirit. Oops.

[Lek]

This line of reasoning is always so weird to me. I understand the notion that they don't want their god to looks like a monster, but this apologetic has some very bizarre consequences.

Her stated position is that people who did not know about God have a 0% chance of going to hell, and people that do know about God now have a choice to accept or reject him. This means that people who know about God have a non-zero chance of going to hell. So, by evangelizing to people, you are increasing their chance of going to hell.

The highest moral good is to stop telling people about God. The more standard apologetic I hear on this topic is that the Holy Spirit comes to everyone in some undeniable way, and it is up to them to accept or reject God. How you can reject something that is "undeniable" is beyond me, but that's beside the point. You can look at a map and have a pretty good idea what religion a person is by knowing where they're from. So, even if this is all true, the Holy Spirit is demonstrably less effective than regional demographics and religious upbringing. So, people teaching people is way more effective than the "undeniable" influence of the Holy Spirit. Oops.

You've got it wrong. I'm not saying that everyone who has never heard of Christ will be saved because of their ignorance. According to Romans Chapter 1, because of the evidence in nature, no one has an excuse not to believe in God. Therefore, we all should be believers in God. There are people who have never heard of Christ, but have honestly believed in God and have searched for the truth about him. These people, I believe, would have salvation. There are other people who have not heard of Christ, but refuse to seek out God. These would not receive salvation.

[robvalue]

Refuse to seek out your god, you mean. Why would they do that when they have been indoctrinated by the exact same logic to worship another god? And if they are in a dictatorship, they may well have no opportunity to even become aware of other religions. God gonna roast them?

It's all arbitrary of course, people have all different ideas and are just making it up based on their favourite verses.

[Lek]

Refuse to seek out your god, you mean. Why would they do that when they have been indoctrinated by the exact same logic to worship another god? And if they are in a dictatorship, they may well have no opportunity to even become aware of other religions. God gonna roast them?

It's all arbitrary of course, people have all different ideas and are just making it up based on their favourite verses.

There is only one God, but we have different concepts of who he is. If someone is seeking God, they are searching for that one God. They could have never heard the name of Jesus, but still be in touch with God. They are reliant on God for the revelation that they receive from him. Coming to God is a process and we're all in different stages of that process.

[dyresand]

Refuse to seek out your god, you mean. Why would they do that when they have been indoctrinated by the exact same logic to worship another god? And if they are in a dictatorship, they may well have no opportunity to even become aware of other religions. God gonna roast them?

It's all arbitrary of course, people have all different ideas and are just making it up based on their favourite verses.

There is only one God, but we have different concepts of who he is. If someone is seeking God, they are searching for that one God. They could have never heard the name of Jesus, but still be in touch with God. They are reliant on God for the revelation that they receive from him. Coming to God is a process and we're all in different stages of that process.

All in all Lek... god is a asshole