A Simple Rule

[robvalue]

I find the idea that someone is "born X" where X is a religion, to be utterly repulsive. It's like we've already stuck our crusty dick of lies into our baby's ear before it's taken its first breath.

Age of consent for religious "teachings" is my answer. That would separate the wheat from the crap wheat, and we'll see who has the mangoes.

[dyresand]

I find the idea that someone is "born X" where X is a religion, to be utterly repulsive. It's like we've already stuck our crusty dick of lies into our baby's ear before it's taken its first breath.

Age of consent for religious "teachings" is my answer. That would separate the wheat from the crap wheat, and we'll see who has the mangoes.

That's... how third world people are... i am grateful to be in a first world country because even if i was born over there to believe that bullcrap i would keep my title i just wouldn't believe in any of it.

[robvalue]

If I was born with a dick in my ear I'd be back for that dick once I could handle a sword.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Sure, I get what you're saying. I'm not advocating attacking them though, or forcing them to make a choice, just asking them to think.

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So I'm just talking here about education and the free discussion of ideas. I have no force in mind.

I'm pretty confident that as atheism and secularism grows, more and more moderates will naturally be drawn our way. I don't mean the individual people, I mean in terms of each new generation. I guess that's why I'm not explaining myself well, I'm not talking about rounding up the moderates we have today and forcing them to pick a camp. I'm talking about bringing the age of reason so that new generations can think properly for themselves.

Oh, I wasn't meaning "attack" in that sense, because I didn't think you had anything so unreasonable in mind. I meant "attack" with polemics, not police.

[robvalue]

I just want to live in a world where I can run into a church and laugh at everyone until I puke without being oppressed.

[abaris]

Oh, I wasn't meaning "attack" in that sense, because I didn't think you had anything so unreasonable in mind. I meant "attack" with polemics, not police.

My major problem is, that all the people arguing against the moderates, starting out with Harris, down to some people taking him as an example, do so from their comfy armchairs in relatively liberal western states. From the top of ti ivory tower, so to speak. They argue from a position of superiority, looking down instead of trying to walk in their shoes and of imagining what life may look like in a remote desert village without running water and electricity and schools.

But my bigger problem with Harris' postions, and in particular the video being posted here, is that people obviously listen with some sense of awe. Harris says so, and that's someone to listen to, without even considering the flaws in his arguments.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Puking is good cause for repression, if you ask me. Have you ever smelt the stuff?

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My major problem is, that all the people arguing against the moderates, starting out with Harris, down to some people taking him as an example, do so from their comfy armchairs in relatively liberal western states. From the top of ti ivory tower, so to speak. They argue from a position of superiority, looking down instead of trying to walk in their shoes and of imagining what life may look like in a remote desert village without running water and electricity and schools.

I thought the point you made earlier about raising standards of living was the best point in this thread. Education directly undermines religion -- but education takes money and free time.

Additionally, poverty feeds radical Islam by attaching economic conditions to oppression by rich Christian nations, especially the USA -- "we're poor because of the American embargo".

But my bigger problem with Harris' postions, and in particular the video being posted here, is that people obviously listen with some sense of awe. Harris says so, and that's someone to listen to, without even considering the flaws in his arguments.

Yeah, even atheists are prone to hero-worship ... forgetting that all gods have feet of clay.

[DeistPaladin]

I think there are other forms of radical -- for instance, Sufi Islam, which is a mystic recasting of the Koran, or Calvinism; neither of which are grounded in literal readings of their holy books, but rather, rely upon interpretation; and neither of which espouse violence (any more).

People create new religions all the time. The Randian Christians who make up much of the religious right have somehow managed to fabricate a completely new hybrid religion between two prophets, Ayn Rand and Jesus, who would have opposed and despised one another.

The "scripture" here becomes more a matter of oral traditions, since the Paul Ryan style Randian Christians are comfortable with neither Jesus' arguable proto-socialism nor Ayn Rand's contempt for religion.

The fact that new religions can be created doesn't mean the more traditional ones don't need inspection or criticism.

As an aside, I don't think moderation of extremism in faith are conscious choices. I think they're much more a result of the circumstances of one's upbringing, including parents, local culture and prevailing views, wealth or its lack, as well as exposure to moderate or extremist preachments.

The major challenge for Islam and civilization is finding out how they can moderate and integrate. They did once, certainly. The very reason Europe climbed out of the Dark Ages at all is because the more moderate Islamic world kept the flame of Greco-Roman knowledge going. But this was a different strain of Islam than the one we currently know, just as Christianity has changed since then.

Do you have any actual cases of moderates abandoning the faith altogether because a skeptic chided that they weren't being true to it?

Nearly every story I've heard from ex-Christians is that their road to rationality involved a gradual process of increasing moderation until they abandoned their faith completely. The moderation pitstop was an attempt to reconcile scripture with what they knew of the way the world actually works. The final step is when they realize that scripture says what it does and that there's no way to do so.

Every "moderate" Christian I know or knew, at least every one that I can think of right now, is/was a moderate precisely because they can't/couldn't deny that the world is older than 6000 years old and evolution is the explanation for how we came to be. That's kind of why I was so incredulous at even the prospect you outlined. The very reason they're moderates is because they are unable to be fundamentalists. That door is barred shut from the knowledge they acquired. Their moderation is an attempt to cling to their religion against the evidence to the contrary.

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They will get secular once they are more educated and provided with actual opportunities.

I wish that were true.

Many of the 9/11 hijackers were educated. Education is no inoculation to religion as we think it ought to be because of the human ability to compartmentalize our minds.

[robvalue]

Education. Exactly. That is what I want, nothing more.

Well, people stopping from killing each other would be nice too.

I just want to live in a world where I can throw children down wells and be allowed to hastily create a new religion to justify it instead of being oppressed.

[abaris]

Additionally, poverty feeds radical Islam by attaching economic conditions to oppression by rich Christian nations, especially the USA -- "we're poor because of the American embargo".

Add to this the fact of people losing loved ones to bombs or knowng someone who did and you get that deadly mixture of personal loss, patriotism and feelings of revenge that can be so easily exploited when someone gives them a cause.

I have to say, that's an argument I'm making for the last decade whenever some of these discussions crop up. Everyone should try to reflect on how they would feel when being under attack, when losing either their livelihood or relatives or in many cases both. One doesn't simply wake up one morning and says, hey, it's a good day to become a suicide bomber. There's a process involved and to look at that process is vital.