A couple of questions for atheists

[Jenny A]

I think too many people are ready to define anything that they wouldn't do to their own child as child abuse. If indoctrinating children is child abuse, then the vast majority of children are abused and have been since the dawn of time. Interference with child raising, unless it's for very good reasons is a human rights violation. Even the most backward, stupid, gun toting, religious nut, has the right to teach his children what he believes as does the most socialist, pacifist, gay-loving, atheist.

Not too long ago in the U.S., the government had an integration policy under which American Indian children were removed to boarding schools and punished for speaking their native languages and taught that their parents' religions were backwards, wrong, and superstitious (which like most religions including Christianity they are). Every effort short of not allowing them to go home for summer, was made to separate them from tribal traditions. The results were not good. Unfortunately, that, or something akin to Big Brother and the thought police is what springs to mind when someone suggests that parental indoctrination is child abuse.

I can imagine some extreme instances in which religious practice or indoctrination would be child abuse. These include: dangerous practices like snake handling or some forms of fasting; long term physical disfigurement like tattoos or genital mutilation; denying medical treatment; encouraging or requiring children to break the law; prolonged mental abuse akin to a struggle session; or physical abuse. But those are all things that would be child abuse whether there were a religious motive or not.

[Alex K]

I think too many people are ready to define anything that they wouldn't do to their own child as child abuse. If indoctrinating children is child abuse, then the vast majority of children are abused and have been since the dawn of time.

I would at least "demand" that it causes some kind of psychological trauma to qualify.

[Jenny A]

OK, seems like we've been having a misunderstanding. Maybe I should just say that indoctrination is damaging, and as such, it would be a good idea to educate parents on this. How does that sound?

---

Seems the term abuse was a bit of a red herring to my point, apologies.

Rather more reasonable yes.

[Alex K]

Well, your Herring was obviously inspired by Richard Dawkins' famous statement I presume.

[robvalue]

Probably, yes. I think I first heard is stated by him and I agreed. I suppose the definition of "abuse" is up for debate, and whether this qualifies or not. But it wasn't important to my actual argument, that hellfire and judgement indoctrination is harmful. I wouldn't have used the term if I'd realized it would confuse the issue

Fucking bastards though, kill them all. I'm sick of it, I'm going to go out and do them all in soon. See if their god stops me.

Education. Very often these issues all seem to end up there, better education.

[Cato]

I agree that religious indoctrination isn't abuse in and of itself. Also, using the power of the state to hinder a parent's right to educate their children in their religious tradition will immediately run afoul of Article 18 of the U.N.'s Universal Declaration of Human Rights (also first amendment of U.S. Constitution). I think that it's also important to note that religious freedom does not exonerate parents that violate existing laws that protect children from abuse. If cases of religiously motivated abuse exist, then the accuser has the burden of proof and can seek remedy in court as with all other forms of child abuse.

Here is a partial list of relatively recent (non-religious) child rearing ideas that are far more hideous than religious indoctrination.
- Not keeping score in competitions.
- Doling out trophies and awards simply for participation.
- Grade inflation.
- Any other form of unearned praise meant to bolster a child's self esteem.
- Stopping kids from exploring their world to hose them down with hand sanitizer every 30 seconds.
- Ensuring children are engaged in some type of planned activity from the time they finish school until it's time for bed.
- Telling children that they can achieve anything as long as they work hard. Industry and perseverance are admirable traits with just rewards and should be instilled in children, but not everyone can be a world class athlete and some people are incapable of singing in tune. It's best to be realistic with this lesson and not fill your child's head with delusions of grandeur.

[dyresand]

1) Do you consider indoctrination to be child abuse? What about taking children to church?

Yes, because a child is learning at a young age why limit their education with faerie tales. Its not to say you are saving them from hell but are encouraging them that god made everything when evidence goes against it. Better to be educated than believe in a story from the bible to be true.

2) If so, would you theoretically support this being made into law? (Disregarding the practicality of enforcing it.) My answer is yes.

Yes children are our future they maybe the shittiest generation, non the less they are our future and need to be educated.

On an unrelated topic, I found this video from 2007 of Sam Harris. I wondered what people's opinion is about it. He talks about the possible harm of using the "atheist" label. I can see where he is coming from, and agree with some of the barriers that have been inadvertently thrown up. But I personally think this is outweighed by the effect it has on making it easier for the next atheist to "come out". It may be a moot point now, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss.

Labels hurt everyone look at history and the fact that blacks gotten treated so badly and the animosity is still there and prevalent even in the north in some areas, but really bad in the south. The thing is with the label atheist, theist tend to call them killers and or blasphemers and treat them badly not knowing full well what an atheist truly is. I think that stems from the church because if people make out conclusions to the world that make sense and says magic is bullshit they are going to attack atheists because we don't believe in magic or anything in the bible and the truth is none of the bible is true. So that being the case its better to be a atheist in a first world country rather than a third world country because you would get killed over it.

[robvalue]

And again, that comes back to education. Educating people what atheist means! It's not that hard you bum-skulls. If you want to know about atheism, don't go and ask your priest. Ask atheists. You wouldn't ask your plumber about astro navigation.

[thesummerqueen]

And again, that comes back to education. Educating people what atheist means! It's not that hard you bum-skulls. If you want to know about atheism, don't go and ask your priest. Ask atheists. You wouldn't ask your plumber about astro navigation.

Most people don't even know where to go find knowledge, much less how to parse it out.

[ManMachine]

I think too many people are ready to define anything that they wouldn't do to their own child as child abuse. If indoctrinating children is child abuse, then the vast majority of children are abused and have been since the dawn of time.

I would at least "demand" that it causes some kind of psychological trauma to qualify.

Life itself is a psychological trauma.

MM