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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 19, 2015 at 3:14 am
(This post was last modified: January 19, 2015 at 3:15 am by robvalue.)
Sorry bob96 but we've all heard these arguments hundreds of times before and they weren't convincing the first time. At best, it's an argument from ignorance, "I believe God did it because you can't provide another explanation or prove me wrong." That's a logical fallacy, a bad reason to believe anything, and stunts any further learning because you've plugged up your brain with a false answer. Also, this sort of argument doesn't differentiate between any of the infinite possible gods, even if it had any merit.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 19, 2015 at 3:20 am
(January 16, 2015 at 7:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Quote:This is why the year is "2015". We count the years from the birth of Christ.
Not quite. The Gregorian Calendar counts years from the year 1 (there is no year 0). Trouble is, we don't know exactly when Jesus was born, assuming historicity. If there was an historic Jesus, cases can be made for his birth being anywhere from 4 BCE to 8 CE.
Boru
Didn't King Herod die 4 BCE?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 19, 2015 at 3:34 am
It's such a long time ago, it's perfectly acceptable to just make up the dates.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 19, 2015 at 3:37 am
I don't see it as a challenge at all, the universe is what it is, and we will never know all the answers.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 19, 2015 at 9:57 am
(This post was last modified: January 19, 2015 at 9:58 am by goodwithoutgod.)
(January 18, 2015 at 6:46 pm)bob96 Wrote: (January 14, 2015 at 6:42 pm)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Every second, vast numbers of virtual particle pairs come into existence and mutually destroy each other. What has been called collectively, the quantum foam. Where do they come from? There is a vast sea of energy out there in the Universe that is drawn on to create these particles. Where did that come from? Where does this supposed God come from that religious theologians prattle about?
IF God exists, then it is possible that He created the energy from nothing. By definition, God can do this. It is outside the realm of science, and of our understanding. It is the realm of faith - believing without evidence.
IF God does not exist, then this energy could not have come from nowhere. To believe that this energy did come from nothing requires faith - believing without evidence.
Logically, it would require greater faith to believe that something came from nothing, than to believe that someone created the something - despite there being no empirical evidence for either.
Therefore, atheists have more faith than theists - in this respect.
IF Spongebob exists, then it is possible that He created the energy from nothing. By definition, Spongebob can do this. It is outside the realm of reality, and of our understanding. It is the realm of delusion - believing without evidence.
IF Spongebob does not exist, then we don't know where this energy could have come from; thus Spongebob must exist. To believe that this energy just HAD to come from a magical being requires faith in disingenuous strawman assertions - without evidence.
Logically, it would require greater faith to believe that something came from a magical unseen being...like Spongebob, than to believe that chance and circumstance allowed the something to become more than it first was - despite there being no empirical evidence for Spongebob or any other magical being.
Therefore, theists have more faith in fabricated delusion than atheists, who prefer to live in the real world, and do not need to cling to fabricated delusions because they are too scared to acknowledge the finality of death, and are comfortable saying, we don't have all the answers to life - in this respect.
FIXED! 
John 20:30-31 - "but these are written that ye might believe that jesus is the christ, the son of god; and that believing ye might have life through his name".......just about says it all right there, let me paraphrase; "we are making up these stories to help people believe...the story."
You, not a mythical god, are the author of your book of life, make it one worth reading..and living.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 20, 2015 at 3:13 pm
(January 18, 2015 at 6:46 pm)bob96 Wrote: IF God exists, then it is possible that He created the energy from nothing. By definition, God can do this. It is outside the realm of science, and of our understanding. It is the realm of faith - believing without evidence.
IF God does not exist, then this energy could not have come from nowhere. To believe that this energy did come from nothing requires faith - believing without evidence. But I don't have to believe that "this energy did come from nothing." I can reject both of your "ifs" and simply admit that I don't know how the universe came to exist. Why would you think that if I reject the second concept, that I have no choice but to believe in the first? Especially when the first refers to basically the same thing: something I cannot detect in any way, for which I only have a definition made up by people who could also not detect it.
Why do theists do this? Why do they reduce god to "something" that is no different from "nothing" as if this is some kind of earth-shattering realization that will make an atheist drop to his knees in terror? How many ways can you come up with, to say "if you don't know, then it must be god"?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 20, 2015 at 5:35 pm
(This post was last modified: January 20, 2015 at 5:41 pm by bob96.)
(January 16, 2015 at 7:56 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Oh, and also? In an increasing number of circles we use C.E and B.C.E, not B.C and A.D. So... I guess that's a strike against the existence of Jesus? 
Historical writings about Jesus and his disciples outside of the bible:
Flavius Josephus (37AD-c.100) is the most famous Jewish historian.
In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”
Josephus writes:
"At this time there was a wise man named Jesus"
"many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples."
"Pilate condemned him to be crucified"
"But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship."
"He was [the] Christ"
"he was perhaps the Messiah".
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians”, who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius.
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel.
The Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) all mention Jesus.
In fact, the gospel could almost be reconstructed just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), performed miracles (“did magic,”) led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true. No one will die for what they know to be a lie.
(January 16, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (January 16, 2015 at 7:36 pm)bob96 Wrote: This is why the year is "2015". We count the years from the birth of Christ.
I hope you don't believe that the present calendar, the one that dates the present year as 2015, dates back to Jesus' time.
It wasn't introduced until 1582, and it wasn't adopted by over half of Europe until more than a century later. Britain didn't adopt it until 1752.
I didn't know that. Thanks.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 20, 2015 at 5:41 pm
Writings that came decades and centuries after Christ's supposed existence =/= contemporary evidence.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 20, 2015 at 5:46 pm
(January 16, 2015 at 8:22 pm)goodwithoutgod Wrote: Bob96, christianity is the dominating religion because emperor constantine decided he saw a message in the sky indicating this was the god that would protect him during combat, and after surviving that battle, he decreed it the official religion, banning all others by threat of death.,he then presided over multiple councils in Nicaea.
Looks like my argument for Romans being intelligent has been blown out of the water. Point taken.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 20, 2015 at 5:47 pm
(This post was last modified: January 20, 2015 at 5:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Shameless copypaste Bob....
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html
In any case, yes, we've done these to death on the forums as well. Perhaps you should pick one or two..then, -in your own words- make the case? My favorite is Pliny the Younger. If it's reliable - then a portion of christian mythology is false. If it's not reliable.....then a portion of christian mythology is false. I'm fine either way we go with it, and neither will have anything to say about some "jesus".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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