It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.

[pocaracas]

Muhammad is way different than Jesus, he had relatives, they wrote things down.

But... but... Rayaan was just telling us how Mo's tribe relied only on oral tradition...
Why would they write anything down?

Robert Spencer is a Christian extremist and bigot. I'm probably one of the most critical people of Islam on these forums but my criticism of Islam doesn't make my brain fall out of the side of my head or make my degree in history disappear. Muhammad almost certainly existed. What difference does it make anyway? Muhammad existing, the awful, slaver, raider and pedophile that he was? It makes Islam look worse honestly.

The purpose was not to say if the man existed or not.... but if he did start the notion that he was a prophet... or of someone else started it for him, possibly a few decades later.

[Minimalist]

Muhammad almost certainly existed.

Then you should have little trouble producing evidence to that effect.


(P.S. In this, the koran is just as much bullshit as the bible is with jesus. Let's see some actual evidence.)

[ReptilianPeon]

Can't be bothered to read through seventeen pages of posts so if this website has already been mentioned I'm sorry. Basically the first Mosques did not face the direction of Mecca. There's a guy who visited the sites of various early Mosques and figured out which direction they were facing. Apparently Petra, in Jordan, was the holy city for a time. I remember there was a Web page with a Zip file one could download which contains markers you can place on Google Maps to prove the Qibla was not Mecca but I can't remember where it is.
http://www.searchformecca.com/Jerusalem.html

[CristW]

Can't be bothered to read through seventeen pages of posts so if this website has already been mentioned I'm sorry. Basically the first Mosques did not face the direction of Mecca. There's a guy who visited the sites of various early Mosques and figured out which direction they were facing. Apparently Petra, in Jordan, was the holy city for a time. I remember there was a Web page with a Zip file one could download which contains markers you can place on Google Maps to prove the Qibla was not Mecca but I can't remember where it is.
http://www.searchformecca.com/Jerusalem.html

Well, I remembered that Muslims considered Jerusalem as the first direction(Qiblah) of prayer until it was changed by a new verse(ayat) through the Quran (as they say).

I am sure some type of "myth" and "legends" were created surrounding Prophet Muhammad these hints are throughout the sahih hadiths and Quran. You could also compare this with Shiah sources like Nahjul Balagha. It seems that the shiah sources, if they are authentic, points to the existence of Prophet Muhammad. It is really the disagreement between shiah and sunni sources which allows the credibility of his existence. The real issue is whether Prophet Muhammad exhibited qualities of a Prophet or simply an Arab revolutionary?

[JesusHChrist]

It seems that the shiah sources, if they are authentic, points to the existence of Prophet Muhammad. It is really the disagreement between shiah and sunni sources which allows the credibility of his existence.

Are any of those sources contemporary? Other than one disputed reference from 635, I can't find any reference to a "Mohamed" until about 100 years later.

Whether or not that single reference is sufficient...?

[pocaracas]

You know how Jesus and Mo are two very similar beasts?
Both only crop up in writing about 100 years after their alleged extraordinary actions.
It's like if people were hiding those wonderful feats until the commotion died out...
Or maybe... nah... maybe someone made them up somewhen before writing about it

[Wyrd of Gawd]

You know how Jesus and Mo are two very similar beasts?
Both only crop up in writing about 100 years after their alleged extraordinary actions.
It's like if people were hiding those wonderful feats until the commotion died out...
Or maybe... nah... maybe someone made them up somewhen before writing about it

All of the hadiths are pure BS that was made up centuries after Mo supposedly bit the dust.

[CapnAwesome]

Muhammad almost certainly existed.

Then you should have little trouble producing evidence to that effect.


(P.S. In this, the koran is just as much bullshit as the bible is with jesus. Let's see some actual evidence.)

Sure, no problem. Aisha, muhammads child bride, wrote about him extensively. That's a primary source. This is better evidence than we have for Ghenghis Khan or many well established historical figures. She wrote quite a bit about their personal life, was the daughter of Abu Bakr, who was certainly a real historical figure. Unlike Christianity there are lots of primary sources about early Islam. I think a lot of this is just confirmaion bias. People don't like Islam (Including me, I'm probably one of the people most against it on these boards.) so they are willing to believe whatever negative is said about it. Sometimes you have to actually examine the evidence though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

[Minimalist]

And where is this "evidence?"

[CapnAwesome]

The purpose was not to say if the man existed or not.... but if he did start the notion that he was a prophet... or of someone else started it for him, possibly a few decades later.

I don't think that we have to establish that he wasn't a prophet. There is no such thing as prophets.

Whether or not Muhammad founded Islam or whatever language niggling people want to do, Islam fails because there is no god. If you don't believe in god, what the fuck is the point of niggling of small and hard to prove details of Islams founding? Islam is false not because Muhammad wasn't the primary source of it's spreading (which isn't a disputed fact anyway) but because the claims that metaphysical claims that it makes about the universe are so egregiously false.