Evidence God Exists

[Epimethean]

Yeah, he's a sweetie that way.

[tackattack]

---

meh, people see what they want to see. Despite people claiming that prayer works, It never happens on a measurable scale. In-fact an experiment done in recent years, Shows that prayer doesn't work.

The odd thing is prayer is easy to prove, So incredibly easy. Pray to whatever God you hold dear, pray that you cure some kids down syndrome, pray that God heals a quadrapalegic and lets him/her walk again,. Get a Dr's before and after report and BOOOM, prayer is proven and by association God.

This sadly never happens, We get a lot of bullshit that basically ties into good luck. Ie I was in mess x and Y sorted it out.

Come on people, You are better than this. If you want to prove the concept of prayer. It is easy to do. hell james randi will give you a million for it. Imagine the good works that will do for your church.

---

I have seen recent studies where they tried to quantifiably test prayer and it failed. I wasn’t aware the definition used here required that my evidence be either conclusive or objective. Actually, healing children of leukemia as well as other purported terminal illnesses happens quite a lot (the before, pray, after method) as well as with other cancer patients. It is measurable and cumulatively it is indicative evidence for me that prayer works. I requested something of the Abrahamic God, it happened. I requested it from some other diety or not at all, it doesn’t happen. I can’t see something this cut and dry as confirmation bias. Please enlighten me.

---

1-Alright, an example of me praying for myself that was successful is I was in a financial bind from floating checks and got "behind the ball" with overdraft fees etc. Completely my own doing. I didn't have anything to tithe on Sunday, and felt especially shameful about that. I spoke with my pastor about it and that night I prayed that I fulfill my commitment to the Church and get out of irresponsible financial mess. 3 days later my boss told me to stay late because him and his boss wanted to see me. I had no idea what for. Apparently 6 months earlier, unbeknown to me, my boss had put me in for an award. They presented me with $500. That was exactly enough to catch me up on all the late and overdraft fees with exactly enough left over for 2 weeks worth of tithe next Sunday and a good testimony.

2-An example of me praying for someone else was for my son. He had Mercer in his finer and his fingernail had come off. After taking his to the doctor and getting his medications and something for his pain and dressing his wound we were home for a few days. He only occasionally complained of pain. The Pastor was over for boardgames one night. The pain medication didn't seem to be working tonight and my son said he was in pain. He asked that I come and say prayers with him when I put him to bed. My wife, the pastor, his wife and I all went to pray over him for bed. We prayed that his pain, which he was experiencing prior to prayer, would go away and God would heal his wounds. When the prayer was over he was happy and not in pain (his words) and seemed kind of surprised by it. The next day he didn't want his pain medication and the redness that was there for 2 days prior had returned to normal and normal healing took place to regrow the nail.

This is your 'proof of God'? Are you actually serious? That is beyond pathetic, tack, and I'm sure the other Christians here are smacking their heads thinking 'What are you doing, you numbskull?'. This is your argument:

1. One day I was wearing red socks.
2. On the day I was wearing red socks, my favourite team won the Super Bowl.
Conclusion: The red socks caused my favourite team to win the Super Bowl.

With the first one, you've actually explained fully how the prayer had absolutely nothing to do with it, because your boss put you forward 6 months before you prayed. That meeting would have taken place whether you had been in financial turmoil or not (also, if 500 bucks sorts out your money woes, you weren't that bad off in the first place). To credit this to God is asinine. Where was God when you were getting yourself in the financial shit in the first place?

With the second one, what timescale did the doctor give for when the pain would stop? Also, I suggest you do some reading into the placebo effect. The mind is a powerful thing. While you're in a reading mood, have a quick look at a thing called 'confirmation bias'.

My favourite part is that you actually acknowledge that it might not have been God that answered your prayer. So even if we were to accept the ridiculously flimsy conclusion that these two things happened as a result of you praying...that's proof of God how?

Very embarassing that I have to explain this, and terribly frightening that you're probably passing this horse shit onto your child.

---

Just realised, it's a good job I used the Super Bowl and not the World Series, what with my 'red socks' analogy. That could have been confusing.

---

1- God was allowing me to have free will to stray from the path he preferred for me. I agree the meeting and reward would have taken place regardless. I asked my boss this morning what caused him to submit the paperwork. He said, “something just told me I needed to”. And he’s moderately religious. That’s not the point though. Please explain how the timing of everything as well as the quantities matched up so exactly to my request.
2- One and a half to 2 weeks and it was day 2 or 3. I’m aware it could have been a placebo, then a few months ago he scraped his knee and leg rally bad falling off his Bike. He wanted me to pray for him, but honestly he was doing stupid tricks and while I felt bad that my son was in pain, I had told him not to play on the bike ramp with the big boys. I prayed with him, letting him do most of the talking and my only thoughts regarding his wounds were “you did it to yourself” mentality. The pain didn’t instantly cease, despite the fact that verbally the 2 prayers were practically the same, merely the intents and causes were different. Would the same placebo affect worked on him a second time?
My child rearing is fairly open-minded and he can think and choose whatever he likes, I don’t force him to believe anything, so let’s keep parenting quips and digs to a minimum, as you don’t know me from Adam. To answer your other question how is it proof of God, it’s not, it’s proof that my prayer got answered. The fact when I pray to Shiva or Minerva or Luna they don’t get answered is indicative of the authoring power.

---

How the hell can you say a god had anything to do with that? There are far more rational explanations. I was violently sick yesterday, now I'm a thousand times better today. I vomited last night, I was in agony. Now I'm not going to jump to conclusions and say some god helped me. My body's defences as well as known techniques that I used that helps fight off illnesses. Thankfully I had what I needed.
Now how comes a god would help you? You've got a roof over your head, food readily available to you, a family and I would bet you would have money in your bank. Yet there are people out there with non of these things, why don't we see god helping them? There are kids starving, dying (often painfully), many out in the cold and have no future. They need help, not you. Your fine, in fact from people who are a thousand times worse off than you, you're a super rich and super lucky guy who's living in the delusion in which he thinks he's poor and in need of divine help. I've been really sick, many times and painfully but I'd still rather god help others who really are worse off than me. I'm only sick, but at least I've got a roof over my head, a family, a full belly of food.

This is why I find stories like yours pathetic. You think your in a bad way? Take a trip to Africa and visit some villages. They are highly religious, always asking for help and never receive any. Yet for some reason, you being in a far better position needs it more. Since according to you, you got it, yet they didn't.

---

Simple: God had everything to do with the timing, and intention of those particular causalities. You deem it irrational because you are a materialist, yet I’m getting chided for confirmation bias?
At no time did I state that I was deserving of more help than anyone else, or that there weren’t more worthy uses of God’s power. Let’s not turn this into a POE issue, Ace. You know me far better than to think I’m anything less than a philanthropic do gooder. I’d much rather God send a cure for AIDS than cure my son’s booboos, but that’s not what I prayed for, which is the point. This is a distraction to the point; let’s not derail this conversation anymore. I mean unless you guys really don’t want to talk about Evidence for God, then I don’t know why everyone just doesn’t let the topic die.

[ElDinero]

1- God was allowing me to have free will to stray from the path he preferred for me. I agree the meeting and reward would have taken place regardless. I asked my boss this morning what caused him to submit the paperwork. He said, “something just told me I needed to”. And he’s moderately religious. That’s not the point though. Please explain how the timing of everything as well as the quantities matched up so exactly to my request.
2- One and a half to 2 weeks and it was day 2 or 3. I’m aware it could have been a placebo, then a few months ago he scraped his knee and leg rally bad falling off his Bike. He wanted me to pray for him, but honestly he was doing stupid tricks and while I felt bad that my son was in pain, I had told him not to play on the bike ramp with the big boys. I prayed with him, letting him do most of the talking and my only thoughts regarding his wounds were “you did it to yourself” mentality. The pain didn’t instantly cease, despite the fact that verbally the 2 prayers were practically the same, merely the intents and causes were different. Would the same placebo affect worked on him a second time?

Firstly, to thebigfudge you said that it happens 'quite often' that people pray for a sick kid to get better and they do. This may be the case but all that's really saying is 'a lot of people pray for sick kids'. Also what happens a lot is they don't get better at all and they die after enduring a lot of agonising pain. Cancer goes into remission sometimes. The prayers are absolutely incidental to the recovery. By ignoring all the times the prayers don't 'work', that is confirmation bias. It's fine to say 'cumulatively, all these times prayers get answered and the kid gets better is indicative that prayer works', as long as you also knock points off every time nothing happens. It's not a fair test, it's rigged.

Now onto your two ridiculous stories. The timing appears to be a thing known as COINCIDENCE. However, it's actually also another example of your confirmation bias. You're saying 'oh how brilliant, a few days after I failed to give my church money I got some money' - surely it would have been more impressive if you'd got the bonus the week before and didn't have to miss paying your dues in the first place? Or if God had helped you manage your money better beforehand so you weren't in the financial shit? You're ignoring all the places where things went wrong and only picking the good. Praise God!

Finally, this addendum to the second story tells you all you need to know. Just because you didn't pray to make your kid's leg better, your son did. And nothing happened. I cannot believe this needs pointing out to you. So does God ignore the pleas of children in pain, so it's only adults he listens to? Or have you personally got a hotline to him not afforded to your son and others?

It's almost like....get this...sometimes good things happen to you, and sometimes they don't! Sometimes pain goes away quicker than expected, and sometimes...IT DOESN'T!

Finally, would you mind telling me when you last prayed to Shiva?

[The Grand Nudger]

Prayer is an effective treatment for childhood luekemia? Alert the medical establishment!

Your boss hooked you up with a bonus, why exactly are you invoking "the great unknown" for a situation that already has an explanation (of which you are already aware, and can be demonstrated)?

Your kids pain went away, good for him. You know I suffered severe trauma and my pain went away eventually too, walked about 16 miles back to receive medical treatment. Something tells me that if anyone was praying for anything, it was my death. How do you know when your prayers aren't answered by Shiva or Minerva? Didn't you, not but a few posts ago, admit that you don't actually know who answers prayers? Why is it all of a sudden so certain?

Finally, god doesn't have anything to do with anything unless you have evidence that god exists in the first place. While we're on the subject, wtf ARE you doing praying for money and "soothing babes" if you have a track record of answered prayers and you understand that a cure for HIV would be more useful?

Are you honestly trying to end the thread by claiming that any criticism of your "evidence" is derailing the thread? More of this christian "I don't like this conversation anymore and so I'm going to claim that it's off topic even though I myself spurred it on, ostensibly as proof that there is a creator and that he is Yahweh." Is this "evidence" capable of supporting the assertion of the existence of god or efficacy or prayer only when it is taken at face value without any sort of critical analysis?

Weak.

[KichigaiNeko]

Sorry Tacky but we are STILL waiting for this "evidence"

[ElDinero]

While we're on the subject, wtf ARE you doing praying for money and "soothing babes" if you have a track record of answered prayers and you understand that a cure for HIV would be more useful?

Haha. This thought crossed my mind also. Actually says that he'd rather HIV was cured than his kid's finger get better, but still prays for his kid's finger. Why choose that one Tack? Or why not both?

Could it be because you know there is not a hope in hell of any large scale prayer like that being answered, which would go against your whole 'all my prayers get answered' angle?

[Epimethean]

Well, if the hope were in hell ...

[medviation]

This should be a short thread....

Oh yes it is

[The Grand Nudger]

If you snipped everything that wasn't "evidence god exists" it would be nonexistent.

[Epimethean]

Nicely punned, my friend.