Challenge regarding Christian morality

[robvalue]

Lek: thank you for the first sensible theist answer

I'm sorry but "sinful" is an entirely religious construct and has no basis in reality.

Are you saying that it's not common sense that divorce is to be a last resort and adultery is generally a mean thing to do?

And it's not obvious that seperating people and actions (love thine enemy) is a good thing?

I would argue that these are all very obvious and people figure this stuff out without help from Christianity.

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To love the Lord with all your with all your heart.

This has nothing to do with morality, or even reality.

[robvalue]

Lek: Would you mind giving your reasons as to why you think the moral teachings you mentioned aren't obvious? I have never taken any interest in Christianity until recently, and I've never even considered adultery and I think I'm very good at seperating people from actions. I've never been divorced either, but I've always known it should be a last resort.

[Lek]

Lek: Would you mind giving your reasons as to why you think the moral teachings you mentioned aren't obvious? I have never taken any interest in Christianity until recently, and I've never even considered adultery and I think I'm very good at seperating people from actions. I've never been divorced either, but I've always known it should be a last resort.

I think they're not obvious because of the number of people who actually ignore them. I was browsing an article a day or two ago where the writer was urging people to get out of relationships that were causing them not to be happy. That's okay if you're not married. Many people today don't recognize there to be any real commitment in marriage. When it gets rough they get out. In marriage we initiate a contract in which we commit ourselves to each other for life. It's a legal and moral contract. If we purposely break that contract, it's not just a legal wrongdoing but a moral one as well. If you make a promise to someone and then renege on it, you're being immoral.

"Love your enemies" is even more disregarded. When you love someone, you want the best for them. Who actually desires the best for their enemies? That doesn't mean that you are to let them walk all over you. A guy stole my wallet a few months ago and caused me countless problems by using my credit cards. He's now in jail for that and a bunch of other stuff. He properly belongs in jail, but I'm having a bit of a problem hoping that rather than just be punished, he will actually turn his life around and have a rewarding life.

Anyway, it seems most people look at personal happiness as trumping real morality.

[robvalue]

You seem to be suggesting married people should stay together even when they are no longer happy. What is the point of that? Two people are miserable, and no one is benefiting. Sure, it is a legal contract, but it is one that can be terminated legally as well. I understand that to you this has religious implications, but I'm not discussing that. Just morality regarding wellbeing.

"Loving" your enemies I wouldn't take literally as a good moral teaching. Love is a very extreme word. You can still want the best for them, within reason. It's too vague to mean much, for example if your "enemy" is someone you are fighting in a war, you can't love them while shooting at them, not in any meaningful way. So it's wildly open to interpretation. I think the most sensible one is to separate people from their actions, or past actions at least. I think that's an obvious way to think. The fact that people may hate their enemies doesn't mean they are unaware of such thinking, or the benefits, but can be just that they don't want to think that way or that they are too much of an enemy to deserve their thoughts.

Just because people aren't following certain moral actions, doesn't mean they aren't aware of such actions and that they would be moral. No one acts morally all the time, and some people are more selfish than others and don't care too much about morals.

[Davka]

This is a byproduct of another thread, but I think the point is worth its own thread, if not its own TV show.

Can anyone name a single Christian moral teaching (moral meaning helpful for the wellbeing of individuals and society) that is not reasonably obvious to any well balanced atheist?

If you are a Christian and the answer is no, what does that tell you about the relevance of Christianity as a moral guide?

Sinfulness of divorce and adultery

That's in the OT, and in other cultures as well.

Love your enemies

Possibly the only Christian-unique moral code. But nobody actually follows it, least of all Christians.

Actually, western world secular morality is based on christian morality.

No, it's based on ancient Greek philosophy. secular Western philosophy is a product of the Enlightenment, which was a reaction against the calcified minds of the Christian world. The Enlightenment was all about using reason and logic to find answers, as opposed to using dogma and scripture.

[robvalue]

My morality is based on my experience, my conscience, my empathy and reasoning skills. My morals can improve over time, and adapt to changing circumstances, which inflexible religious morality cannot do.

[Davka]

I once had a conversation with an Orthodox Jewish gentleman about the teachings of Jesus. He challenged me to come up with a single teaching that Jesus didn't simply take from pre-existing Jewish teachings. I thought for a minute and said "he told us to love our enemies."

The gentleman was silent for a moment and then said "OK, I'll give you that one, that's original. But it's stupid!"

Are you sure that teaching doesn't exist in Judaism? It is similar to the golden rule which I have heard exists in many cultures.

Similar, but not the same. The Golden Rule tells us to do (or not do) to others what we would have them do (or not do) to us. It doesn't address how we feel towards our enemies. That was a new concept.

Paul actually illustrates this with his "heaping hot coals on their heads" line - treat them as you want to be treated because that'll show the bastards!

[robvalue]

Well, that's the other problem with xian morality. You can usually find another teaching which directly contradicts it, leaving you to pick the one which matches your pre-drawn morality. As usual.

[Drich]

Theirs the whole greatest commands bit that we do..

[Davka]

Theirs the whole greatest commands bit that we do..

you mean the part where you travel around the world, forcing your beliefs on the locals and attempting to erase their cultural heritage?