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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 7:46 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 7:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
What "out" Prof? Precisely? We'll still have laws and prisons...and sadists writing laws and guarding prisons..regardless of whether or not we have free will....all the shit you christards just fucking loooove. I'm just not seeing an "out" here, either way. Hell, a better understanding of our motivations might help us to better deal with crime...or even build more horrifying prisons...and you can't possibly have an issue with that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 7:48 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 7:51 pm by IATIA.)
(January 27, 2015 at 12:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your description of God falls short.... And so does yours. A god with limitations is not a god. A god with no limitations is illogical and impossible.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 7:49 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 6:42 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: As far as the concept of free will in philosophical terms goes... Frankly, I don't care about that. I can only operate in the realm in which I perceive. I no more consider the existence of predetermination or the possibility I am a brain in a jar in a lab somewhere than I try to visualize what a world made of eleven dimensions looks like.
Cogito ergo sum. That's good enough for me.
You know, part of me agrees with this sentiment and part of me is entirely too curious to simply dismiss predeterminaiton as unimportant.
I agree with rasetsu's comment that it's unlikely that the free will debate will become settled anytime soon, but I also think that it's important to recognize that the science is piling up more and more against free will. As Creed pointed out, there are many parts of the brain that the consciousness has no control over, and it has become quite established that our thoughts and decisions are highly dependent upon and constrained by our brain structure.
I admit that I lean towards determinism, so this may be my bias talking. But I think that the scientific evidence lays the onus of the argument on the proponents of free will.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 7:52 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 7:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Cogito assumes it's conclusion......."I" think.....therefore I am. Personally "I" think that "I" am -a useful assumption-. It's good enough for me to, but there's often a wide gulf between good enough, and true. This "I" business is just as shady as free will. 
Me, I've always thought that if we're just going to roll with the assumption as though it spoke to some deep truth we may as well make it even more descriptive (plus we could triple down!). "I think, therefore I am...but what am I?"
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 7:57 pm
Precisely, so as much as I(we) give theists shit for living a comfortable lie, it's very hard for me to say that good enough is good enough.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 7:59 pm
Rythm, the out I referred to is to be able to negate personal responsibility.
To persuade oneself to believe a lie.
A lie that flies in the face of every nation's laws, which have always held that we are to choose to obey laws and this is based on personal responsibility.
Something tells me there is a spiritual root in all this.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 7:59 pm
I think, therefore I am what?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 8:00 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 8:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
In what way is personal responsibility negated Prof? Was it not your hand that pushed the knife? Let me truncate this whole song and dance for you. You've unknowingly attached a shitload of concepts to something that may not exist...and your ignorance of how none of those concepts requires this one to begin with is going to make you fight tooth and nail to save -it-...when what you want to save is -that-.
Sound familiar?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 8:05 pm
Without free will, how can I be responsible? I certainly am not responsible for the Big Bang and the determinism that follows. How can I be responsible for the result?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 8:49 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 9:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Same answer as I gave Prof, Iatia. Is it not your hand that pushes the knife? Or, appraoched from a more familiar angle, with free will intact - when you are unintentionally the cause of damage, no choice made by you to do damage... are you not still responsible, will we not hold you accountable? We already understand the concept of responsibility/culpability without intent...so why would that somehow change if I removed "free will"?
We might change our idea of what to do when we assign responsibility, sure....but we already assign it regardless of whether or not one made some "free will" choice to do this or that. What changes, as Ras(estsu!) is fond of reminding people, is more likely the notion of moral desert. You can imagine a situation in which you don't deserve this or that consequence based on diminished or non-existent intent, which may be true..but it won't necessarily change how we handle you after that fact. Even if we accept absolute compulsion...as in the case of some nutjob who just can't stop stabbing people - can't..not won't...can't-, we don't wring our hands and say "Well gee fellas, he has no choice so I guess we'll just let him go" ....we lock him up, regardless of whether or not he has a choice. Sometimes we accept that people absolutely have chosen to do something that one or many of us may find objectionable, such as killing another person. We decide, even with the choice, not to assign responsibility for their actions on them...and instead...assign responsibility for the event and subsequent action to the aggressor...and call it "self defense".
We already do all of this, our system and concepts of responsibility already work without any need to refer to the "free will" of some party. -Then-...at the other end of this..we certainly aren't interested in the "free will" of the convicted..are we?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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