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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 8:53 pm
I do not know for sure. Without free will, there is no ownership. So in a deterministic universe, the answer is no.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 9:08 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 9:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Jesus christ...now it's ownership? See, I said this to Prof...but it applies to you as well. Is there some point at which you're going to make free will a reality on it's own merits or will it be an endless list of -but what about this other thing?- At some point a person could just say "So what about that other thing?"
Do you no longer own a car because you decide, with your "free will" to leave it on the side of the highway? Or will you get a fine, and a bill, for leaving the car that you still own...on the side of the highway? You don't "freely will" your heart to beat..is it not your heart? You didn't choose your body...is it not your own? Are the thoughts that just pop into your mind, un-chosen...somehow someone else's..or no ones?
You're going to have to go long and hard to find something that truly hinges on free will, in order to make this sidestepping conclusion business work, and if you ever get there I'll just say "So what...guess we'd have to rethink that one." eh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 9:40 pm
I seem to have missed your point or you have missed mine.
In a deterministic universe, there would be no free will. Everything is a 'chain of billiard balls' and everything is what it had to be. Without free will, how can I own or control anything? I am just a product of the 'chain of billiard balls'.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 9:49 pm
I have always imagined free will as being the free reign to choose between either one or another option.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 9:57 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 9:58 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 27, 2015 at 9:40 pm)IATIA Wrote: In a deterministic universe, there would be no free will. Everything is a 'chain of billiard balls' and everything is what it had to be. I don't think that the universe being a deterministic place is actually the most salient part of that. Imagine that it isn't...that still won't get -us- any closer to having free will. Maybe the universe isn't deterministic, maybe something, somewhere, has some of this free will. I don't think that we do. But, sure...if the universe, everything, were entirely deterministic..there'd be no room for free will, sure.
Quote:Without free will, how can I own or control anything?
Free will isn't a requirement for either of those things, that's how. So in both of those regards, it doesn't really matter if you have it or not. I gave a few examples of precisely that in my last post.
Quote:I am just a product of the 'chain of billiard balls'.
That, in your example, does not have free will - roger. Yet, your heart is still your own, and none others...and you do control it..even if you don't choose to do so, if "free will" isn't the mechanism by which that control is accomplished.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 10:13 pm
If this is a deterministic universe, then "I" am nothing more than a coagulation of subatomic energies. "I" do not own my heart. "I" do not own my mind. "I" do not have any control. For all intents and purposes, "I" do not exist.
If "I" have any control or ownership, then "I" do exist and the universe is not determinate. This, however, presents the issue of how can the body have free will. If the free will is truly free, then it must be able to choose 'past' the chemical and electrical reactions of the body. That would take us into 'soul' area or some awareness beyond the confines of the body.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 10:20 pm
(January 26, 2015 at 2:48 pm)IanHulett Wrote: Hey guys. I know I've chosen to post this question, but how do I know if whether or not I have been preprogrammed to post this? It's not like I can go back in time to rethink my decision and choose another option. Does free will actually exist? Are all our actions just a product of time? Is there a way to actually test if whether or not we have free will? Thanks a bunch.
This is probably a stereotypical question (maybe even viewed as dumb by some), however I want to know what your thoughts are on the subject anyway. Depending on how you think about it, it's impossible to tell. As you note, you cannot reverse time and face a particular choice multiple times, and if you could you wouldn't be able to tally the results (or if you could, you now introduce a bias that can skew the results).
To me, it's a moot question. If it's impossible to tell if your actions are pre-programmed, then there's no reason to worry about it. Since there is no clear indicator that my decisions are predestined, a life with free will plays out no differently than one without, from my perspective. Hence, not something to get worked up about.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 10:28 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 10:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 27, 2015 at 10:13 pm)IATIA Wrote: If this is a deterministic universe, then "I" am nothing more than a coagulation of subatomic energies. Nothing to do with a deterministic universe, but sure...you could say that.
Quote: "I" do not own my heart.
Nothing to do with a deterministic universe, but you seem to.
Quote: "I" do not own my mind.
Nothing to do with a deterministic universe, but you seem to
Quote: "I" do not have any control.
Is control required to assign ownership, I wasn't aware.....and besides, you do actually have control over your heart, it's just not a control that you get to fiddle with, particularly not with any "free will" eh?
Quote:For all intents and purposes, "I" do not exist.
You may not, at least not in the way that you think...but that's not really going to change that your heart is your own, and not mine - that you control your heart...and I do not control your heart, and that none of that really has much to do with a deterministic universe as-stated.
Quote:If "I" have any control or ownership, then "I" do exist
Granted, welcome back to reality.
Quote: and the universe is not determinate.
Is there anything in your bags that you would like to declare sir? lol.....cmon...that wasn't even sneaky....
Quote:This, however, presents the issue of how can the body have free will.
That's pretty much the only issue, all the rest of this is irrelevant.
Quote: If the free will is truly free, then it must be able to choose 'past' the chemical and electrical reactions of the body. That would take us into 'soul' area or some awareness beyond the confines of the body.
Meh, I don't make demands of something which I wish to argue as real that would argue better for it's being not real. Why would we even go to soul, in a deterministic universe...wouldn't "soul" be hobbled all the same, if everything was under sway of determinism? If we're going to make special exceptions for this "soul" business we may as well make special exceptions for this "body" business.
You know what amigo...I think that if you layed some of this out as succinctly as possible...and tried to form a logical statement, rather than this freeform stuff...you'd probably spot the issues with your claims yourself.
@ Tonus...Trouble is this...we've actually found that it's -not- at all impossible to determine that. Some clearly are. Even worse, some surprising things can be -reprogrammed-, even when we think we've chosen them....essentially on a whim...takes very little.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 11:26 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 11:30 pm by Creed of Heresy.)
(January 27, 2015 at 7:14 pm)professor Wrote: C of H, no one can answer your question.
I think you guys get hung up on your definitions of omnipotent, omniscient.
There are things an unchanging God can not do, like lie, or go against His nature.
Seems to me you want an out.
To be able to say: "It's not my fault, I am simply pre-programed".
Much like:
"It was the serpent" /
"The woman YOU gave me gave me.."
But using the naturalistic jargon of today.
Same tune- different words.
He cannot go against his nature, and yet he did. He went from being an angry, jealous god, to being a kind, benevolent god.
The definitions of omnipotence and omniscience are not ambiguous. They are concrete, solid, agreed-upon for millenia; the bible describes god as all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present. There is no ambiguity in these claims. And yet his nature is completely contradictory, at least according to the bible. The bible was compiled three centuries after Jesus supposedly existed. It's almost like there was no consensus, like nobody could get their story straight. When nobody can get their story straight, then the story is a lie. If the story is a lie, there is no basis for your faith. If there is no basis for your faith, then your faith is actually a solipsistic self-delusion rather than a matter of faith.
The reason nobody can answer my question is because there is no answer, and there is no answer because there is no truth to the existence of god. It is a falsehood. A lie told for millenia by the privileged few who could not exercise their power through anything other than lies and mysticism. And yet to this day, billions continue to succumb to those lies and that mysticism, blindly believing the few who control them.
You need only look at the 1,200 megachurches with their millions of constituents and their equal amounts of income and abuse of their tax-exempt status for proof of this.
"Faith" is the surrender of reason, the surrender of the mind. Of all the "virtues," faith is the most overblown, most over-rated. (Christopher Hitchens; he had it right)
You cannot answer me, because religion and faith provides no real answers. At the end of the day, you have nothing. You have hollow claims and hollow promises, hollow words. And hollow words are meaningless. They are empty. Devoid of relevance. Devoid of content. Devoid. Void. Pointless. Worthy of no consideration. Worthy of no acceptance. Worthy of nothing but scorn.
That I don't scorn you but pity you is a mercy on my part. It is a generosity. A condescension, yes, but it's better than my outright contempt.
It's because I was once in your shoes. I was. Until I realized the truth of what I have just said. When I realized the emptiness of my words, of my thoughts, I realized the emptiness of my self-worth. I realized my vulnerability to being manipulated and controlled by those who had no place, no right to do so.
I wonder if you will do the same. All I can say is...
Don't be afraid of drowning. Come on in, the water is fine. And if you need to, stay in the shallow end, wade until you are confident. The universal pool of curiosity and learning becomes exhilarating to jump into. Diving is a joy. There is a vigor in the waves and currents, and dealing with the difficulties they present.
But first it requires you to realize the emptiness of your beliefs. It requires you to think. Can you question the contradiction, the meaninglessness? Or do you close your eyes and pretend it's all got meaning, even though the meaning is only of your own making?
Religion will tell you you're not worthy, that you are a terrible sinner and without submission you are a worthless, terrible thing. I believe you're worthy of self-value. I believe you don't need to lie to yourself to find your way in life. I believe you can completely think for yourself. You, Godschild, Drich...I believe you have the capacity. I know you have the capacity. It's up to you to determine if you can use that to your own benefit. If the false comfort has too much of a hold on you, if it's too scary to even consider surrendering...so be it. But I'll always hope.
I know you'll do the same for me in regards to your own worldview, but I promise you, to go back to your way of thinking would hurt me far more than it would help, even if you cannot understand how or why.
(January 27, 2015 at 7:49 pm)Faith No More Wrote: You know, part of me agrees with this sentiment and part of me is entirely too curious to simply dismiss predeterminaiton as unimportant.
I agree with rasetsu's comment that it's unlikely that the free will debate will become settled anytime soon, but I also think that it's important to recognize that the science is piling up more and more against free will. As Creed pointed out, there are many parts of the brain that the consciousness has no control over, and it has become quite established that our thoughts and decisions are highly dependent upon and constrained by our brain structure.
I admit that I lean towards determinism, so this may be my bias talking. But I think that the scientific evidence lays the onus of the argument on the proponents of free will.
I don't think the free will debate will ever be settled. It would require hard evidence to bring about a near-unanimous consent on the matter, and let's face it; no hard evidence will probably ever be provided in favor of predetermination. Maybe for total free will. Maybe. But I doubt that, too. But just based on our slavery to our hormonal impulses, I think I can safely say that we ourselves actually prevent free will from being an absolute thing.
Still...we still at least have the capacity to make informed decisions to an extent.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 28, 2015 at 2:23 am
(January 27, 2015 at 3:17 pm)Alex K Wrote: YOU are telling us that He creates us with a predetermined future. Why do you want ME to explain why?
That's your picture:
Step 1: He creates us
Step 1b: He knows our future
Step 2: We live our life
Ergo he creates us with a predetermined future.
Mom and dad have a baby boy/girl
God sees all the choices the baby will make
The baby grows up making those decisions God saw
God in no way determined what those decisions were
Ergo mom and dad made a baby who made it's own choices
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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