Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?

[The Grand Nudger]

I understand and agree with that. I just think that the issue can keep a person going in circles. Over the course of our lives we change in many ways. It may be a big change (switching ideological sides, for example) or a small change (deciding to change the flavor of coffee you buy). These are almost certainly influenced by something. Does that mean that we have free will (we are able to make changes based on new input) or that we do not (we are guided by that input and don't really have a choice)? Without the ability to go back and replay those moments, we end up with a solipsism, IMO.

If we could answer the question definitively it would be the most important discovery in the history of mankind for social science. Imagine the increased effectiveness of rehab or cessation programs, the changes that could be made to both law enforcement and our penal system. Imagine how a better understanding of why we do the things we do, the things we might call "choices" could affect the personal relationships of every human being on the planet. Divorces, abusive relationships, absentee parents...all made decidedly less jagged and unpredictable. The flow of vehicle and pedestrian traffic, advertising, education, soooo much.....it's important. Try to imagine all of the applications of a robust understanding of human behavior and "choice" based upon quantifiable metrics, rather than magic. We've already taken the first steps into all of this......so we clearly understand the value.

The only time we go round and round in circles is when we reasseart and redress our intitial assertions rather than go where the evidence leads us. For example, you mentioned that we change over time, and then go on to say "maybe that's evidence of free will - no, that's evidence of change over time. If -change over time- might be evidence for free will then perhaps evolution is evidence of natures "free will"? Our inability to go back and replay things does not lead us to solipsism, unless you're a solipsist with regards to every single concept you hold and every moment prior this this one, which is, incidentally, now lost to time as I type it - including the concept of solipsism...

Everything we learn about how our minds work can be fitted into that framework so that we can either easily answer the question or not answer it at all.

I'm not sure that there are any easy answers regarding our minds..and similarly I don't think it's easy to simply -not answer-, regardless of the framework.

I suppose we could assign a percent chance to any decisions we make, but to me any percentage higher than zero would mean that we have free will.

Hardly, just as being able to predict every choice we made with 100% certainty would not actually prove that we -didn't- have free will. Whats being proven in either case is the effectiveness of our predictive tools.

Or it could be argued that we have "30% free will" and "70% external influence" affecting our decisions, which might be a valid approach in the end, though I think it would prove that we do have the freedom to make our own decisions.

How about this, we have no free will, but we can exert influence in 30% of the stuff we think is "free will", and the other 70% has no wiggle room? That our influence may not be magic in a bottle (or, in this case, in a skull) isn't such a radical suggestion, is it? 30% unmoved mover of mind doesn't cut it for me, I want to see a single percent of unmoved mover before I consider whether or not 30% is appropriate. It seems as though free will is standing in for "internal influence" in that ratio above in any case...as though the metric for what was or wasn't free will was what was or wasn't external. I see nothing about "internal influence" that would lead one to describe it as "free will". The stuff that comes from outside isn't free will, but the stuff that comes from inside is?

[Godscreated]

Long story short, GC; if god knows how our lives will go, then that means everything has been pre-determined.

That's all I've heard here, if God knows, if God knows, care to use some words other than those to prove your point. God says His desire is for all to be saved, how is that in any way connected to predetermination.

If god is all-powerful, then that means he has absolute power over our lives.

In what world? Just because God is all powerful doesn't necessarily mean He uses that power to control anything or anyone. If God had predetermined everyone's fate, then pray tell why did He find it necessary to give the law. If all human life is predetermined then no one can keep or break the law, they have no choice in the matter. Why send His Messiah, why allow his Son to become a man an die such a terrible death, why would He need to send Him from the comfort of heaven. Why would God through Jesus give us the two greatest commandments of love and tell us if we keep these two the rest will fall into place in our lives. There is choice in all these examples, you haven't given one thing to show how God has predetermined our lives.

If he has absolute power, that means everything we do is by his influence, as if he does not, then he is not all-powerful.

That's the craziest thing I've heard yet, tell me why does He have to exert that power onto us, what rule exist that says he must. Because He doesn't choose to exert His power onto us doesn't mean He doesn't have it. Actually being all powerful means He can restrain from doing so.

In order to be omnipotent, he would have to have power over us. If he has power over us, then that means we have no power over ourselves.

Yet again the same old stuff, God does have power over all mankind that's a given. Through that power He's given us free will, to determine our destiny.

If he is all-knowing, then he knows ahead of time how we will act. If that is the case, that means he knows how his actions will affect us. If he is always present, then that means he always exerts control, because that would mean he is present in everything...including our actions. If he is present in our actions, then that means he is affecting our actions. And if he is affecting our actions, then we do not have free will.

Then why the law, God being all that you yourself have said, then He would know the law would be completely useless a waste of time, being omniscient He wouldn't have given the law. He gave the law to give man choice and show man he could not make the right choices all the time, actually not even close to all the time.

That enough for you?

Even with wings this frog never got off the ground.

Oh, and additionally, if he was all-knowing and yet also allowing us our free will, why did he throw such temper tantrums about the idol-worship and the thing with Sodom and Gomorrah and everything?

Now you're contradicting what you said above, above you said God being omniscient and here your saying He couldn't be omniscient, it can't be both ways, you've a decision to make, ah yes, choice backed yourself into that one.

Also, don't his actions in destroying those cities and people and sending his son to tell people about him count as being DIRECT intervention in our lives? I think the inhabitants of those two cities would certainly think so, given they were terminated by him quite violently and against their free will...

They came under judgment for wrong choices, choices that went to far beyond what God was going to allow. They were judged and condemned by the perfect God of creation. Christ came to intervene on our behalf for our wrong choices and He himself became a choice, we can choose to allow Him to direct our lives or we can choose to direct our own lives. I've done both, I truly have found choosing Christ to be far better.

And if you believe in miracles, that means he is influencing us outside of our own free will.

I was wondering when you were going to get around to saying we have free will, by the way, you like Rhythm need to understand that the words you choose to use are not related to predetermination. Influence isn't even close to having ones life predetermined, actually influence supports free choice. If we are being influenced it is to show us there is another choice we can make.

GC

[Creed of Heresy]

1 That's all I've heard here, if God knows, if God knows, care to use some words other than those to prove your point. God says His desire is for all to be saved, how is that in any way connected to predetermination.

2 In what world? Just because God is all powerful doesn't necessarily mean He uses that power to control anything or anyone. If God had predetermined everyone's fate, then pray tell why did He find it necessary to give the law. If all human life is predetermined then no one can keep or break the law, they have no choice in the matter. Why send His Messiah, why allow his Son to become a man an die such a terrible death, why would He need to send Him from the comfort of heaven. Why would God through Jesus give us the two greatest commandments of love and tell us if we keep these two the rest will fall into place in our lives. There is choice in all these examples, you haven't given one thing to show how God has predetermined our lives.

3 That's the craziest thing I've heard yet, tell me why does He have to exert that power onto us, what rule exist that says he must. Because He doesn't choose to exert His power onto us doesn't mean He doesn't have it. Actually being all powerful means He can restrain from doing so.

4 Yet again the same old stuff, God does have power over all mankind that's a given. Through that power He's given us free will, to determine our destiny.

5 Then why the law, God being all that you yourself have said, then He would know the law would be completely useless a waste of time, being omniscient He wouldn't have given the law. He gave the law to give man choice and show man he could not make the right choices all the time, actually not even close to all the time.

6 Now you're contradicting what you said above, above you said God being omniscient and here your saying He couldn't be omniscient, it can't be both ways, you've a decision to make, ah yes, choice backed yourself into that one.

7 They came under judgment for wrong choices, choices that went to far beyond what God was going to allow. They were judged and condemned by the perfect God of creation. Christ came to intervene on our behalf for our wrong choices and He himself became a choice, we can choose to allow Him to direct our lives or we can choose to direct our own lives. I've done both, I truly have found choosing Christ to be far better.

8 I was wondering when you were going to get around to saying we have free will, by the way, you like Rhythm need to understand that the words you choose to use are not related to predetermination. Influence isn't even close to having ones life predetermined, actually influence supports free choice. If we are being influenced it is to show us there is another choice we can make.

GC

Numbered everything for ease of using the quotes and replying to the individual segments at the same time.

1: Taking apart a single point of an argument that is self-contained pretty much betrays how much you're actually paying attention. That is to say, it shows you're not actually reading with the intent of hearing anything contrary to what you and you alone think, you're just being a contrarian for the sake of being the debating equivalent of a petulant screaming child. Have some respect for the fact I'm willing to actually spend some time discussing this with you and pay some fucking attention.

2-3: If you are ALL POWERFUL. Stick with me here, I know you have a VERY short attention span, but. If you are ALL POWERFUL. It means you are ALL POWERFUL. It means that the universe itself shapes to your will. The bible does not say he has the capacity for omnipotence. It says he IS omnipotent. It also says he is omnipresent. If he is present in everything, he is present in our actions, our thoughts, everything. If he is present in our actions and thoughts and he has power over everything then two plus two equals four and his power is being expressed in our actions.

To make it REAL simple for you: All-present = Present in everything. Everything = EVERYTHING. All-powerful = Power over EVERYTHING. All-knowing = Knows EVERYTHING. If he is present in our actions, and has power over them, and knows what they will lead to, then he is influencing us directly, and with the power of foresight and hindsight. Strip away the part about omniscience if you need to make it simpler for you; he is present in everything. Our actions. Geddit yet? I can't spell it out any clearer, so if you don't, well, you're a lost cause and I'm wasting calories typing this.

4: No, not the "same old thing," it's a part of a larger argument, which you would have realized if you were more interested in considering the point instead of just cutting it apart into pieces to rearrange into your own worldview's compatibility.

5: Yeah, about that... Isn't the act of god giving mankind law him interfering in our lives? You know...interfering with out free will? Why didn't he just let us figure things out on our own? If he has the power of perfect foresight, and he made this one action to set us on the right path, then why didn't he make a set of other actions to set us on the ABSOLUTE right path? If he gave us free will, doesn't that mean we would know right from wrong from the get-go? I mean, we'd be able to figure it out on our own, that's kind of what free will entails. I'm not arguing in favor of god's omni-abilities. I'm saying how they don't stack up with the claims about them or himself.

6: Another example of "if you had read and considered the entire point as the whole that it is supposed to be and not picked it apart into neat little pieces you could re-arrange until it was no longer the original argument and had instead become a strawman, you'd get what I'm saying." Unfortunately, what you've done so far is... Well, take an equation. 1+ 2 + 3 = 6. What you've done thus far is go "1 DOESN'T EQUAL 6! 2 DOESN'T EQUAL 6! 3 DOESN'T EQUAL 6!" Take the entire argument into consideration as a whole; not the sum of its parts.

7: Ah, so god will give us free will...unless we use our free will too much, then he'll get mad and kill us? So much for free will.

8: Being influenced and being told what to do are two different things. If god determines what is right and wrong, then we are not living by our standards of right and wrong; we are living by his. And if we are living by the standards of another, that means we haven't determined what is right and wrong for ourselves; we've been deliberately directed. That's not a matter of "choice." That's direct intervention.

[Godscreated]

[quote='Godschild' pid='858856' dateline='1422489116']

---

1 That's all I've heard here, if God knows, if God knows, care to use some words other than those to prove your point. God says His desire is for all to be saved, how is that in any way connected to predetermination.

2 In what world? Just because God is all powerful doesn't necessarily mean He uses that power to control anything or anyone. If God had predetermined everyone's fate, then pray tell why did He find it necessary to give the law. If all human life is predetermined then no one can keep or break the law, they have no choice in the matter. Why send His Messiah, why allow his Son to become a man an die such a terrible death, why would He need to send Him from the comfort of heaven. Why would God through Jesus give us the two greatest commandments of love and tell us if we keep these two the rest will fall into place in our lives. There is choice in all these examples, you haven't given one thing to show how God has predetermined our lives.

3 That's the craziest thing I've heard yet, tell me why does He have to exert that power onto us, what rule exist that says he must. Because He doesn't choose to exert His power onto us doesn't mean He doesn't have it. Actually being all powerful means He can restrain from doing so.

4 Yet again the same old stuff, God does have power over all mankind that's a given. Through that power He's given us free will, to determine our destiny.

5 Then why the law, God being all that you yourself have said, then He would know the law would be completely useless a waste of time, being omniscient He wouldn't have given the law. He gave the law to give man choice and show man he could not make the right choices all the time, actually not even close to all the time.

6 Now you're contradicting what you said above, above you said God being omniscient and here your saying He couldn't be omniscient, it can't be both ways, you've a decision to make, ah yes, choice backed yourself into that one.

7 They came under judgment for wrong choices, choices that went to far beyond what God was going to allow. They were judged and condemned by the perfect God of creation. Christ came to intervene on our behalf for our wrong choices and He himself became a choice, we can choose to allow Him to direct our lives or we can choose to direct our own lives. I've done both, I truly have found choosing Christ to be far better.

8 I was wondering when you were going to get around to saying we have free will, by the way, you like Rhythm need to understand that the words you choose to use are not related to predetermination. Influence isn't even close to having ones life predetermined, actually influence supports free choice. If we are being influenced it is to show us there is another choice we can make.

GC

---

Numbered everything for ease of using the quotes and replying to the individual segments at the same time.

1: Taking apart a single point of an argument that is self-contained pretty much betrays how much you're actually paying attention. That is to say, it shows you're not actually reading with the intent of hearing anything contrary to what you and you alone think, you're just being a contrarian for the sake of being the debating equivalent of a petulant screaming child. Have some respect for the fact I'm willing to actually spend some time discussing this with you and pay some fucking attention.

Really, that's what arguing an argument is about, if I'm not allowed IYO to take your argument apart then what's the since in have the argument. I'v asked a few questions and received no real answers from you. The most you attribute to this argument is how I do it wrong.

2-3: If you are ALL POWERFUL. Stick with me here, I know you have a VERY short attention span, but.

See you're doing it again, patronizing will get you no where.

If you are ALL POWERFUL. It means you are ALL POWERFUL. It means that the universe itself shapes to your will. The bible does not say he has the capacity for omnipotence. It says he IS omnipotent.

True scripture says God is omnipotent. I agree that the physical universe was formed by God's omniscience and omnipotence, but not the will of man, the scriptures are explicit about this. Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying. "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day you eat of it you shall surely die. This is a choice and the consequence of the choice is given, thus strengthening the man has a choice he alone can make.

It also says he is omnipresent. If he is present in everything, he is present in our actions, our thoughts, everything. If he is present in our actions and thoughts and he has power over everything then two plus two equals four and his power is being expressed in our actions.

Disagree, God is not present within everything and there is no where in scripture that says He is. God is omnipresent by knowing what's going on everywhere at all times. Meaning nothing escapes His knowing and knowing in no way means complete control nor predestination.

To make it REAL simple for you: All-present = Present in everything. Everything = EVERYTHING. All-powerful = Power over EVERYTHING. All-knowing = Knows EVERYTHING. If he is present in our actions, and has power over them, and knows what they will lead to, then he is influencing us directly, and with the power of foresight and hindsight. Strip away the part about omniscience if you need to make it simpler for you; he is present in everything. Our actions. Geddit yet? I can't spell it out any clearer, so if you don't, well, you're a lost cause and I'm wasting calories typing this.

Again your condescension towards me isn't a way to have a two sided argument. There's a big problem with your analysis and I pointed it out above. You are misinterpreting scripture when you say God is present in all things, here's another example, God isn't within you. Your misinterpretation of omnipresent throws off the reality of God's part in a persons life.

4: No, not the "same old thing," it's a part of a larger argument, which you would have realized if you were more interested in considering the point instead of just cutting it apart into pieces to rearrange into your own worldview's compatibility.

You are the one cutting the argument down into pieces and you do it explicitly to change the truth of God's part in His creation, so it fits your world view and then you are able to place your world view on God. Well it doesn't work that way, God is who He is and no matter what you want Him to be you can't change Him, especially for your advantage. I on the other hand have broken it down into easier to understand parts, not to change the unchangeable God, but to make it easier to see the overall picture.

5: Yeah, about that... Isn't the act of god giving mankind law him interfering in our lives? You know...interfering with out free will?

No, and any reasonable person could see it's not interfering, it's a guide to a better life if we choose to accept it, it's all about choice. Children's parents give them rules to guide, is that interference or is it love for the child's well being?

Why didn't he just let us figure things out on our own? If he has the power of perfect foresight, and he made this one action to set us on the right path, then why didn't he make a set of other actions to set us on the ABSOLUTE right path?

He did that exact thing, he said, "you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil," man couldn't even get that one right. One thing to do and free to choose and man screwed it up. The best answer to your question, free will. I'm sorry you can't see this and I really can't understand why you can't.

If he gave us free will, doesn't that mean we would know right from wrong from the get-go?

Yes, that should be obvious from the first three chapters of Genesis.

I mean, we'd be able to figure it out on our own, that's kind of what free will entails. I'm not arguing in favor of god's omni-abilities. I'm saying how they don't stack up with the claims about them or himself.

No, that should be obvious from the first three chapters of Genesis.
Free will only entails choice of right or wrong, your world view would agree with what you say, my world view base on scriptures says man continually makes bad choices. If God had predestined the fate of all man kind He would not have had to sent His Son to die for people who were unable to chose. The reason God's omnis do not stack up as you say, is because you've twisted the scriptures so they want.

6: Another example of "if you had read and considered the entire point as the whole that it is supposed to be and not picked it apart into neat little pieces you could re-arrange until it was no longer the original argument and had instead become a strawman, you'd get what I'm saying." Unfortunately, what you've done so far is... Well, take an equation. 1+ 2 + 3 = 6. What you've done thus far is go "1 DOESN'T EQUAL 6! 2 DOESN'T EQUAL 6! 3 DOESN'T EQUAL 6!" Take the entire argument into consideration as a whole; not the sum of its parts.

If the sum of the parts do not equal the entirety, then either the parts are wrong or the entirety is. The reason for argument is to take the argument apart and examine it. I must say the argument needs to be restated, "does man have free will either from God or from the point of evolution." My most stated argument in favor of free will is this, why are there laws, if there's no free will people could not keep them purposely, so why have them, even more so why punish someone who can't help what they do, if there is no choice there should be no need for law or punishment, until this can be reconciled there's no argument, free will does exist.

7: Ah, so god will give us free will...unless we use our free will too much, then he'll get mad and kill us? So much for free will.

Why is it that atheist who argue against free will can't understand the idea of consequences and justice. It seems to me that this should be easy to understand and I believe it is. So my conclusion has to be you ignore what you know for the sake of an argument, one most Christians believe in.

8: Being influenced and being told what to do are two different things. If god determines what is right and wrong, then we are not living by our standards of right and wrong; we are living by his.

What about the laws of the United States, do they predestine a persons life, I say not hardly. Laws, God's or a countries do not by necessity mean there's only one way to live, they mean there are consequences for choosing to live outside of them because others can be harmed. You need to understand something about God and maybe you do and just ignore it. God doesn't determine what's right and wrong, that might the case for man but not for God. What is right and wrong with God is what goes against who He is, now maybe that's hard for you to understand, but that's how it is.

And if we are living by the standards of another, that means we haven't determined what is right and wrong for ourselves; we've been deliberately directed. That's not a matter of "choice." That's direct intervention.

That all sounds good and well, but it's not how things actually work and you know it. Standards, as you put it, are there to help us live a better life, people do not have to choose that standard or some part of it, they are free to do what they determine, right or wrong. If a person lives in a country where they do not like the law, they can find another that allows them to do as they please, good luck with that though. Law isn't intervention never has been and never will be, it is a means to help a society last and not deteriorate under wrong and or bad choices. Right choices lead to a society that's worthwhile, wrong choices lead to the corruption of a society.

Now I'm never going to change what I believe about free will and my guess you want unless you took up this argument just to argue. So, I guess the best thing to do is agree not to agree. But answer this question for yourself, why do we send men and women into harms way and why do they give up their lives to defend the right of choice.

GC

[IATIA]

It also says he is omnipresent. If he is present in everything, he is present in our actions, our thoughts, everything. If he is present in our actions and thoughts and he has power over everything then two plus two equals four and his power is being expressed in our actions.

Disagree, God is not present within everything and there is no where in scripture that says He is. God is omnipresent by knowing what's going on everywhere at all times. Meaning nothing escapes His knowing and knowing in no way means complete control nor predestination.

om·ni·pres·ent adjective \-zənt\
: present in all places at all times

Jeremiah 23–24

23 “Am I a God who is near,” declares the Lord, “And not a God far off?
24 “Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?” declares the Lord. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord.

Other Translations of Jeremiah 23:24

Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him, saith the Lord ? doe not I fill heaven and earth, sayth the Lord ?
- King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan

"Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him? declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD."
- New American Standard Version (1995)

Can any hide himself in secret places so that I shall not see him? saith Jehovah. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith Jehovah.
- American Standard Version (1901)

In what secret place may a man take cover without my seeing him? says the Lord. Is there any place in heaven or earth where I am not? says the Lord.
- Basic English Bible

Can any hide himself in secret places, that I shall not see him? saith Jehovah. Do not I fill the heavens and the earth? saith Jehovah.
- Darby Bible

Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
- Webster's Bible

Can any hide himself in secret places so that I shall not see him? says Yahweh. Don't I fill heaven and earth? says Yahweh.
- World English Bible

Is any one hidden in secret places, And I see him not? an affirmation of Jehovah, Do not I fill the heavens and the earth? An affirmation of Jehovah.
- Youngs Literal Bible

Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
- Jewish Publication Society Bible

[Godscreated]

Disagree, God is not present within everything and there is no where in scripture that says He is. God is omnipresent by knowing what's going on everywhere at all times. Meaning nothing escapes His knowing and knowing in no way means complete control nor predestination.

om·ni·pres·ent adjective \-zənt\
: present in all places at all times

Jeremiah 23–24

23 “Am I a God who is near,” declares the Lord,

Being near is not within.

“And not a God far off?

This means God can be found when one seeks, prayers are heard, God does not abandon.

24 “Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?”

How is this in any way to be considered God being within anything, let lone everything.

declares the Lord. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord.

This in no way mans God is in and or within everything or anyone.

Now to the real meaning of these verses Mr. CherryPicker. You should have started at verse 21, but even better verse 18 of chapter 23.
False prophets were telling the people all kinds of things that were not true and certainly not from God. They say these things were from God, He was angry with them for lying and using His name in vain. Those verses you posted were God's response to them (false prophets) that there is nowhere in His creation they can hide, they will not be able to escape His punishment.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

Good to know that you think this omnipresence bit is as fishy as we think it is GC. Now, if you think this omniscience bit is as fishy as we think it is then the god in your head won't have any contradictory issues with a concept of "free will" or an unwritten fate.

That where you stand GC, with me, in saying that "god" is neither omnipresent nor omniscient?

[Tonus]

As far as I know, the Bible never flat-out says that god is omni-potent/scient/present. It's possible to reach that interpretation via careful selection of texts and just as conveniently possible to point out that the words themselves aren't there. It refers to god as "the almighty" and I'm sure that there are any number of ways to interpret that (including a common apologist favorite, "this is what the word is in its original language, and how the people of the time understood it"). It may refer to god as "all knowing" but I don't recall if it uses that phrase exactly. But it makes it pretty clear that god can read the minds of humans, both their thoughts and their intentions.

I'm not really sure how to figure out "omnipresent." If it is impossible to hide from god, if he can see everything we do and hear everything we say and read every thought in our heads... isn't that omnipresence? It can't be a reference to a physical presence, since there is no shortage of Christians telling us that we cannot detect god because he is a metaphysical spirit being who lives in his metaphysical spirit home, possibly on a whole different dimensional plane (gotta keep those options open!). Therefore god must be omnipresent, yes? Or am I teetering on the edge of the rabbit hole by asking for a rational explanation of the concept?

[The Grand Nudger]

You're not teetering, you've flung yourself head first into the void...particularly if you're asking our present company of christians for such a thing.

[Clueless Morgan]

Does Free Will actually exist?

Yes, what a stupid question.

Is there a way to tell?

He used to have an enclosure at the Oregon Coast Aquarium but he died in 2003 so you can only "tell" he existed from his appearance in the movie Free Willy.





Wait...

I think I read the question wrong...