Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?

[The Grand Nudger]

You'll never change will you,

Do I have a choice in that...lol?

Now to the actual material, actualized no, visualized yes. To be determined it would have to be planned out to the smallest detail by the one manipulating the actions.

No...it wouldn't. Determinism does not require and is not equivalent with planning.

God does not do this, scripture makes it clear, the flood story shows God allows things to progress in man's free will.

I already gave god a pass, I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend god against an accusation I haven't made. I don't think god determines anything...remember? I'm only asking whether or not god is present in a future state. Presence, GC...read the questions, or don't pretend to respond to them. If I took your answer to actually refer to the section you quoted I would have to conclude that you don't believe god to be omnipresent, merely very imaginative. Is that your position, god isn't actually everywhere, he just thinks about everywhere.

Actualized no, visualized yes. To be determined it would have to be planned out to the smallest detail by the one manipulating the actions. God does not do this, the scriptures make it clear, the story of the Israelites shows God allows things to progress in man's free will.

-again, god was already given a pass, you are responding to some charge explicitly not made. But again, if you think that god is just really imaginative, rather than possessing knowledge of future states......then you don't believe that god is omnipresent or omniscient......

......and isn't that exactly what I said when you decided to call me delusional, you fucking moron?

Who would like someone planning out their entire life, what reason would one have to grow, no decisions to be made, no reason to care. Just because you believe your false religion determines your every decision doesn't mean the rest of us have to accept such crap.

I don't know who would like that, but it's irrelevant to the discussion, and what someone may like is irrelevant to the truth.

God says He has chosen national leaders

Then gods a liar. We voted ours in.

, it's for reasons you would never accept, but nevertheless it's be done and will continue to happen to keep God's ultimate plan on track. But to predetermine everyone's life never.

you seem to be obsessed with this idea, can you choose not to be?

God's seen what the future holds and has appeared into history to make sure His ultimate plan is carried out, but to plan and control our every move, no, never. Our lives are ours to live and to do so we have to have free will.

Sure, and I've seen the inside of the Enterprise.....but that's not what I asked you at all, now is it?

[Tonus]

The JWs once taught that god's ability to see the future could be turned on or off. They likened it to a very strong man, who has muscles capable of lifting great weight, but which he did not always use for that purpose. It was one of the things that chipped away at my belief because it was so crazy, yet I wanted to believe that it made sense.

The thing is, you can use the Bible to show that the future is not set and our fates are in our own hands, but that god can predict future events. Seeing as he is able to do pretty much anything he wants, is it so surprising when he says "everyone will be drowned in a flood" and exactly that happens? It's just his way of showing that if he says something will happen, you know he can make it happen. It has nothing to do with him checking the Highlight Reel of the Future.

The problem with this is that his actions may interfere with free will. Take the case of Judas Iscariot, who betrayed the Christ for 30 pieces of silver. Did god/Jesus know that Judas would eventually betray him when he chose him? If so, then he selected a pretty awful person as a disciple (and apparently his teachings and miracles were unable to convince him of the folly of his actions!). If not, then there is the possibility that god selected a good man to follow him, then turned him evil in order to carry out a part of his plan, which seems horribly unjust. I could never reconcile that problem.

[IATIA]

The way the story goes is that Jesus intentionally set the chain of events in motion to ultimately lead to the crucifixion. Judas was required.

[Alex K]

Yup. No Judas, no salvation.

[Tonus]

The way the story goes is that Jesus intentionally set the chain of events in motion to ultimately lead to the crucifixion. Judas was required.

Yeah, and that's one of the things that stumped me. Judas leaves the supper and brings Jesus' enemies to where he is, so that they can grab him. Jesus himself undermines the need for this, when he points out that they could have arrested him at any time because he wasn't hiding. And there is nothing in the story that indicates that Jesus was skulking around town to avoid the pharisees at night, either. So they could have easily located him on their own. Jesus claims that it had to happen that way to fulfill prophecy, so it was all planned.

Since it was planned, was Judas just some irredeemable sinner who god knew would fall to temptation, providing the necessary piece to the prophetic puzzle? It seems that having a front row seat to the glory of god didn't move him at all! Or was he a sincere follower who was turned in order to ensure that the prophecy occurred as intended? It strikes me as a sloppy plot device, where the hero is undermined by a trusted person from his inner circle in order to create suspense.

[Godscreated]

Do you really believe that we could understand how God brought physical things into being, out of nothing. I really do not believe that would be possible. It's questioned all the time, why, because we can't even imagine such a process.

Physicists have managed to learn some pretty complicated things that probably seem impossible for the layperson to understand. We can understand complex processes if we learn in steps. I don't see why god could not explain it to us in a way we could understand. I think it would be fascinating to understand how supernatural power works, even if it means going outside of the natural universe and learning about a whole new dimension of physics.

If god exists, then the things he does have to make sense on some level. And if they make sense, we can understand them, IMO.

Agree as far as they have to make sense on some level, that would be God's level, far and away above ours. Tell me do you know of anything man has visualized that would explain how to get anything from nothing.
By the way God will explain all to those who things when His plan is finished with mankind, one thing the stories will be told in heaven only.

GC

[Tonus]

Tell me do you know of anything man has visualized that would explain how to get anything from nothing.

Aside from magic, no, although some theoretical physicists talk about particles appearing and disappearing seemingly from nothing. It's one of those areas where I think a lot of step-by-step understanding is required before getting to the really weird stuff.

But is god really creating from nothing? He could be using energy stored within himself, or taking matter from another dimension or reality. If all he does is just make things appear, that seems kind of underwhelming.

[Godscreated]

God's seen what the future holds and has appeared into history to make sure His ultimate plan is carried out, but to plan and control our every move, no, never. Our lives are ours to live and to do so we have to have free will.

GC

So GC, I'm in line with gods ultimate plan. It planned on me not receiving the evidence for its existence. It planned on my eternal afterlife of punishment. it planned on you receiving all the proof you need to live and die according to its "ultimate plan".

Ignoring part of the entirety makes you look less than smart. The part in green is what you ignored, because you do not like to take responsibility for your actions, to bad God says you will. Be it by repentance or eternal punishment.

Does God, at this very moment and according to its master plan, know where I will be spending my afterlife, heaven or hell?

Can I change its decision/master plan?

God does, do you. It doesn't have anything to do with His master plan, that has been left for you to decide, so it's between you and God, no one else knows, just the two of you.

GC

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Tell me do you know of anything man has visualized that would explain how to get anything from nothing.

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Aside from magic, no, although some theoretical physicists talk about particles appearing and disappearing seemingly from nothing. It's one of those areas where I think a lot of step-by-step understanding is required before getting to the really weird stuff.

But is god really creating from nothing? He could be using energy stored within himself, or taking matter from another dimension or reality. If all he does is just make things appear, that seems kind of underwhelming.

It all came from nothing, God created only three time in six days, the rest He made from what He created. You didn't mention anything about been there for the explanation.

GC

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The way the story goes is that Jesus intentionally set the chain of events in motion to ultimately lead to the crucifixion. Judas was required.

That's not true, you've not only misread the story, you misrepresented the story to others.

GC

[Godscreated]

You'll never change will you,

Do I have a choice in that...lol?

Yes, but I believe you're like some I've seen, you would cut off your nose to spite your face.

Now to the actual material, actualized no, visualized yes. To be determined it would have to be planned out to the smallest detail by the one manipulating the actions.

No...it wouldn't. Determinism does not require and is not equivalent with planning.

God does not do this, scripture makes it clear, the flood story shows God allows things to progress in man's free will.

I already gave god a pass, I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend god against an accusation I haven't made. I don't think god determines anything...remember?

What I've seen is you saying God predetermines our future. As for giving God a pass, that's priceless, you giving God a pass, ha,ha,ha.

I'm only asking whether or not god is present in a future state. Presence, GC...read the questions, or don't pretend to respond to them.

You've stated God is within everything, your moving the goal post, careful or you'll have them clean out of the stadium.

If I took your answer to actually refer to the section you quoted I would have to conclude that you don't believe god to be omnipresent, merely very imaginative. Is that your position, god isn't actually everywhere, he just thinks about everywhere.

God is present everywhere, but being present doesn't mean control. God is everywhere through His knowing, imagination has nothing to do with it. He also doesn't have to think about what He knows, that would go against omniscience.

Actualized no, visualized yes. To be determined it would have to be planned out to the smallest detail by the one manipulating the actions. God does not do this, the scriptures make it clear, the story of the Israelites shows God allows things to progress in man's free will.

-again, god was already given a pass,

Again I say ha, ha, ha.

you are responding to some charge explicitly not made. But again, if you think that god is just really imaginative, rather than possessing knowledge of future states......then you don't believe that god is omnipresent or omniscient......

You're trying to put words into my mouth, you're the on saying God's imaginative and that may be possible with creation, but not with man's future trough free will. You've made yourself quite transparent, but keep up the denial if it makes you feel better, that is like you've won something.

......and isn't that exactly what I said when you decided to call me delusional, you fucking moron?

You are delusional, denial want change that, only seeking the truth and accepting it will help your condition.

Who would like someone planning out their entire life, what reason would one have to grow, no decisions to be made, no reason to care. Just because you believe your false religion determines your every decision doesn't mean the rest of us have to accept such crap.

I don't know who would like that, but it's irrelevant to the discussion, and what someone may like is irrelevant to the truth.

You're right, what one wants doesn't necessarily dictate the truth. The truth is God doesn't predetermine our future. You've taken the stance that God predetermines by His inhabitants within everything, by His knowledge of your decisions.

God says He has chosen national leaders

Then gods a liar. We voted ours in.

Then why to this day have people wondered how Obama came from nowhere to become more popular than Mrs. Clinton, strange how that happened.

, it's for reasons you would never accept, but nevertheless it's be done and will continue to happen to keep God's ultimate plan on track. But to predetermine everyone's life never.

you seem to be obsessed with this idea, can you choose not to be?

What idea, please be more specific.

God's seen what the future holds and has appeared into history to make sure His ultimate plan is carried out, but to plan and control our every move, no, never. Our lives are ours to live and to do so we have to have free will.

Sure, and I've seen the inside of the Enterprise.....but that's not what I asked you at all, now is it?

I knew you were delusional, you've asked nothing, you've stated much and the few questions are loaded to the same purpose.

GC

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The problem with this is that his actions may interfere with free will. Take the case of Judas Iscariot, who betrayed the Christ for 30 pieces of silver. Did god/Jesus know that Judas would eventually betray him when he chose him? If so, then he selected a pretty awful person as a disciple (and apparently his teachings and miracles were unable to convince him of the folly of his actions!). If not, then there is the possibility that god selected a good man to follow him, then turned him evil in order to carry out a part of his plan, which seems horribly unjust. I could never reconcile that problem.

God can and has stepped into peoples lives on occasion, God can do this without changing the eventual future people choose. He knows their choices that will lead to there eternal destination.
God did know Judas would be the one, Judas didn't until He became dissatisfied with the Christ God sent and the one he envisioned, which actually happened before they entered Jerusalem for the last time.
There's always reasons with God, Judas was an example of those who would reject Christ for what the world offers, the thirty pieces of silver and the other money Judas stole from the moneys given them during Christ's ministry represent the worlds offerings.
Judas was like many Israelites, he was looking for a military leader to free them from the Romans, his site of what the Messiah was to be was selfish and contrary to God's plan.
I would have a problem with God choosing someone who could have found salvation, but was used for a terrible purpose that lead to his eternal punishment. Thankfully we do not have a God that does such, through His omniscience He saw Judas's future and thus used Judas, through Judas's choices, to complete His plan. Hope that made sense for you. God did not change Judas's finial destination, nor did He cause Judas to make the choices he did, Judas did that through his selfish desires for the Messiah to be who he wanted Him to be. Judas even saw the shame he brought upon himself and without repentance he killed himself. I feel sorry for Judas, he was chosen to show the foolishness of those who choose the world. He was given the chance to hear the good news of Christ, he just wouldn't allow the Holy Spirit to soften his selfish heart. What I wonder, did Judas see the change in his fellow disciples and if he did why wouldn't he question what he was doing before it was to late. The only answer I can come up with, he must have been that self absorbed.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, but I believe you're like some I've seen, you would cut off your nose to spite your face.

Then you should probably demonstrate that, because regardless of some ancillary god bullshit, all that free will hinges on is whether or not I can legitimately lay claim to a choice, the unmoved mover of mind. Your experience and my experience in this regard are identical, the troubling bit is that what we've learned of our universe doesn't seem to support our experience, in this regard.

I'm trying to help you join the conversation. and realize that your god bothering bullshit need not be present.

No...it wouldn't. Determinism does not require and is not equivalent with planning.

Is there something about that statement that you do not understand?

What I've seen is you saying God predetermines our future. As for giving God a pass, that's priceless, you giving God a pass, ha,ha,ha.

You've seen no such thing, this will be the third time that I've explicitly stated that I don't think that god is determining jack shit.

Quote me or demonstrate that you're a worthless goddamned liar.

You've stated God is within everything, your moving the goal post, careful or you'll have them clean out of the stadium.

I haven't, I've asked you what you think. Everywhere and everywhen are the same thing...in case you weren't aware.

God is present everywhere, but being present doesn't mean control.

Irrelevant, it doesn't matter if god has control..as I've stated over and over. If god is present everywhere, then god is present in our futures, and if he is, then it follows that our future is already set -even if it isn't set by him. His ability to be in that time-frame shows that it is predetermined, not that he's the one predetermining it. That our futures already exist. Understand?

No free will.

God is everywhere through His knowing, imagination has nothing to do with it. He also doesn't have to think about what He knows, that would go against omniscience.

No...it wouldn't..but that's irrelevant as well.

You're trying to put words into my mouth, you're the on saying God's imaginative and that may be possible with creation, but not with man's future trough free will. You've made yourself quite transparent, but keep up the denial if it makes you feel better, that is like you've won something.

These are the consequences of your words...not my words put in your mouth. If you can;t follow, don't pretend to be involved.

You are delusional, denial want change that, only seeking the truth and accepting it will help your condition.

I'll have the cornbread.

You're right, what one wants doesn't necessarily dictate the truth. The truth is God doesn't predetermine our future.

Never said god did...I've constantly said that god didn't, but that doesn't speak to whether or not our future is predetermined.

You've taken the stance that God predetermines by His inhabitants within everything, by His knowledge of your decisions.

Quote me, liar.

Then why to this day have people wondered how Obama came from nowhere to become more popular than Mrs. Clinton, strange how that happened.

He's from Honolulu, not nowhere...you're welcome.

What idea, please be more specific.

That determinism, including hard determinism, is somehow connected to or a product of your god. I keep trying to explain to you that it isn't, and that I don't think god is predetermining anything...but you keep responding...as you quote me...to someone else, some other conversation, in which that person is saying precisely the opposite of what I'm saying......all while calling me delusional.....

I knew you were delusional, you've asked nothing, you've stated much and the few questions are loaded to the same purpose.

I don't have any confidence that you understood the questions, let alone what they could be loaded with, since you keep responding to some other conversation, some other comments - with which I have no connection.