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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 3:01 am
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2015 at 3:03 am by Thumpalumpacus.)
(February 5, 2015 at 3:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: These phrases come from the Sherbert test which the court established so I doubt very much they will now find them undefined. Anyways Hams argument will be this:
1. Ark Encounters is a religious organization.
2. Federal Law carves out an exemption for religious organizations that allows them to discriminate in their hiring practices(Title IV of the Civil Rights Act of 1964).
Actually, Title IV covers discrimination in education. The relevant passage you're thinking of is this one:
Quote:Notwithstanding any other provision of this subchapter, (1) it
shall not be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to
hire and employ employees, for an employment agency to classify, or
refer for employment any individual, for a labor organization to
classify its membership or to classify or refer for employment any
individual, or for an employer, labor organization, or joint
labor-management committee controlling apprenticeship or other
training or retraining programs to admit or employ any individual
in any such program, on the basis of his religion, sex, or national
origin in those certain instances where religion, sex, or national
origin is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably
necessary to the normal operation of that particular business or
enterprise;
Now, I'm unsure if only Christians can work on the hydraulics of midway rides, or operate cash registers, but I'm thinking that might be a hard sell in a court.
(February 5, 2015 at 3:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: 3. State law carves out an exemption for religious organizations that allows them to discriminate in their hiring practices(KRS 344.090).
§ 1 of that text is exactly identical to the Federal text, meaning that it is no additional layer of protection for Ham. § 2 requires such exempt employment to be in the accomplishment of the corporation's religious activities. This means that perhaps the guides, who must be versed in Bible mythos, perhaps can be required to be believers. It doesn't appear to cover janitors or popcorn poppers. § 3 covers education institutions and is thus irrelevant.
(February 5, 2015 at 3:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: 4. Providing facially neutral economic incentives does not violate the establishment clause as long as they are administered in an even handed manner. Ark Encounter would be receiving the benefit in spite of being a religious organization and not because it is a religious organization.
I don't think anyone would argue against that, myself.
(February 5, 2015 at 3:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: 5. The economic incentive does not create an excessive state entanglement with religion because it does not require state officials to make judgments about the religious content of the project.
Given the applicable clauses of the state law, one might surmise that state officials would have to determine the religious value and content of a position prior to its being a restricted employment opportunity.
(February 5, 2015 at 3:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: The state cannot argue it has a compelling state interest to prevent Ark Encounters from engaging in discrimination in its employment practices when it specifically grants Ark Encounters the right to do so by statute.
This is the nub of the matter. The state grants that right under severe limitations, as a reading of its law reveals. It may turn out that certain positions must have Christians filling them in order to maintain religious integrity, and I'm fine with that, myself. I wouldn't expect a church to hire an atheist minister, I don't think homophobic churches should be forced to marry gays, and if the tour guide needs to know the Noah myth in detail, a Christian background may well be a fair qualification.
(February 5, 2015 at 3:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: The demand by the Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet that Ark Encounters surrender its rights under Federal and State law to discriminate in its hiring practices in order to receive the benefits of a tax incentive smacks of overt religious discrimination and is a violation of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.
Firstly, it doesn't clearly have that right for all the positions at the entertainment complex. That will have to be adjudicated. Secondly, if the judgement is that some or all of the positions should be available to non-Christians, there is ample precedent in tying Federal benefits to an employer with its adherence to the law.
If that's his best argument, it's a thin reed, with a small chance of protecting some positions. But -- I'm not a lawyer, so we'll have to see.
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 3:05 am
Oh yeah? Well I knew this atheist once who didn't pay his taxes. And he kicked a woman in the face! The police said it was OK because he was an atheist and she wasn't. How is that not discrimination? You want it both ways.
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 3:16 am
(February 5, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Heywood Wrote: Do you know what perjury is? Perjury is more than just lying. It is lying under oath.
You can also be prosecuted for perjury in other instances as well, such as lying on your tax return. I sign a statement to that effect every year, at the bottom of my 1040.
And -- you can be prosecuted for making knowingly false statements to a federal agent regarding any matter within federal jurisdiction, which presumably would include an application for tax credits.
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 12:06 pm
Here's a fantastic blog by Katherine Paige, a Legal Fellow from FFRF in response to ol' Kenny's whinging:
http://ffrf.org/news/blog/item/22326-no-...y-ark-park
Katherine Paige Wrote:Despite the fact that Ark Encounter initially assured the state that it would abide by state and federal employment anti-discrimination laws, a job listing by Answers in Genesis for an Ark Encounter computer technician included some serious religious prerequisites. Applicants were required, among other things, to provide a statement of faith and answer a question regarding their estimation of the age of Earth. (Presumably, any response in excess of 6,000 years, i.e., correct responses, would disqualify an applicant from employment.)
It quickly became clear that Answers in Genesis and Ark Encounter intended to offer jobs exclusively to Christians, and not just any Christians, but "Young Earth" creationists. So Kentucky pulled the plug, and rightly so.
- See more at: http://ffrf.org/news/blog/item/22326-no-...6nVjb.dpuf
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Katherine Paige Wrote:Applicants were required, among other things, to provide a statement of faith and answer a question regarding their estimation of the age of Earth. Potential applicant: aw, shit... no one told me there'd be math problems on this application!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 12:33 pm
A computer technician?
I'm surprised these guys don't think that computers are the work of the Devil.
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 12:51 pm
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 1:02 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2015 at 1:03 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
Hard to see why a computer technician would have to give a statement of faith.
Just as an aside, if they do get this ark built, I'd love to see billboards listing every single species of animal alive five thousand years ago, mounted immediately next to the premises.
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 1:38 pm
(February 6, 2015 at 1:02 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Hard to see why a computer technician would have to give a statement of faith.
Computer technician is just a title. You need to look at the actual job description.
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RE: Ken Ham files lawsuit against Kentucky
February 6, 2015 at 2:15 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2015 at 2:16 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(February 6, 2015 at 1:38 pm)Heywood Wrote: (February 6, 2015 at 1:02 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Hard to see why a computer technician would have to give a statement of faith.
Computer technician is just a title. You need to look at the actual job description.
So, in response to this silly advice, I went and looked up the opening. Here are the job responsibilities:
Quote:Summary
New Programmer
Responsibilities
The Solutions Developer is responsible for developing and maintaining web-based, service-based, and client-based software solutions, which includes the following responsibilities:
Gather, record, prioritize, and schedule solution related requests, features and tasks.
Design, prototype, build, document, test, and support software and reporting solutions.
Manage internal customer relationships by communicating the receiving of, the status of, and the satisfactory completion of all tasks proactively with stakeholders.
Collaborate and support a team at every point of the software development lifecycle.
Other duties as assigned
There's nothing there that indicates a religious mission orientation to the position. But here's the next bit in the announcement:
Quote:Education and Experience
A proven firmness in one’s walk with Christ, evident through a personal life that is above reproach, with an “ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands” (1 Thessalonians 4:11); that is, the heart of a servant that works diligently and seeks to defer praise to God.
Bachelors’ degree or equivalent work experience in computer science or information systems disciplines.
Strong personal management, meaning strong time management skills and extremely well organized.
Strong professional, concise and courteous communication skills, able to communicate technical details and concepts to a broad range of technical and non-technical staff with patience, kindness and grace.
Strong experience with the following languages: HTML5 (including CSS and JavaScript), TSQL, and C#.
Must have experience with Adaptive/Responsive Design, MVC, WCF and RESTful services, and N-Tier architecture development.
Support the technical support staff in advanced trouble-shooting needs, interacting directly with end users.
Maintain effective and consistent communication with management and end users regarding service requests and projects, listening and acting upon concerns, needs, and other feedback.
Proactively address user issues and coordinate resolution of service requests and projects with other groups within IT and throughout the ministry.
Thrives in a high-pace environment.
You'll note that the very first listing is something that is irrelevant to programming computers, and is a baldly religious requirement.
So I went and looked at the other openings. Only one of them has a religious function (Latin American Ministry Co-ordinator). One other position has a marketing angle, which may require the ability to sell the myth, and that means knowing it. The others are in distribution, security, and IT, and have no duties related to ministry or religious education; yet they all have religious requirements.
So yeah, the requirement to have the computer programmer, or the rent-a-cop, or the mail clerk sign statements of faith in order to work there doesn't seem to be necessary, and on the face appears to violate state law.
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