Brilliant new apologetic fact

[Pyrrho]

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Right, because Adam and Eve sinned, little babies, who had nothing whatever to do with that, get bone cancer. You seem to imagine that if someone does something wrong, then it is right to punish people for it who had nothing to do with that wrong. If someone else commits murder, would it be just to lock you up in prison or execute you for it, if you had nothing to do with the murder? Is that your idea of justice?

No, that is not my idea of justice.

That is the Christian god's idea of justice. People who had nothing to do with a crime are condemned because of the crime. I did not get my chance in the garden of eden. Did you?

That is hilarious, coming from you, given that you previously posted:

That's my point. According to the atheistic worldview, disease were not caused by an intelligent being, and are therefore amoral. How can you assign a moral value to an amoral entity?

So, you are saying that there is no god who created everything? If so, then I agree, there is no one to blame for the mess that is the world. But, if it had been created by a being, then that being is to blame for the mess that we experience every day. So, make your choice: Was the world created by a god? If so, then that god is to blame for the mess it created. If not, then, well, if the world is the result of mere random chance, then there is no one to blame. But you cannot have it both ways. Either the world was created by a god or it wasn't. If it was, then the blame belongs to that creator. If it wasn't, then there is no one to blame. Of course, with this second option, there is no creator god. Is that your position, or are you just trying to weasel out of the consequences of the claims you make?

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Being the creator of everything makes one responsible for everything.

Are you then not responsible for your own actions?

To use a metaphor from the Bible, the potter does not properly blame the clay if the pot is poorly made. If a potter makes a bad pot, it is the fault of the potter, not the pot. If god fucks up, it is god's fault, not the thing that god made.

If I was created by an omnipotent, omniscient being, then that being chose to make me exactly what I am. Consequently, that being bears the entire responsibility for whatever I am. And that means, whatever I do as a consequence of whatever I am, is the responsibility of the being that made me what I am, if I was made by such a being.

So, was I created by such a being, or not?

[emilynghiem]

That is the Christian god's idea of justice. People who had nothing to do with a crime are condemned because of the crime. I did not get my chance in the garden of eden. Did you?

Hi Pyrrho only if you don't forgive the conditions we inherit from the past,
does it become a "new sin" of "unforgiveness" and the pattern repeats.

ie people who come from abusive families can repeat the cycle
or can forgive and go through recovery/healing to break out of that cycle.
people brought up in warring conditions can inherit hatred passed down
from Hindus vs Muslims, or Black vs. White, or Palestinians vs. Jews.
Or people can choose to forgive both sides and break out of the pattern.

We don't have to accept the conditions we are born under.
But these still affect us and bias us, even if we become aware
and choose NOT to repeat these patterns.

This is like how Buddhism taught that the mind could be liberated
from caste like conditions that other religions were teaching were
"set for life" once you were born under that karma.

That is why Christianity teaches Forgiveness in order NOT to keep repeating and passing down the same sin. Jesus and the sacrifice/redemption is used to symbolize this process, but each
person has to go through their own version of it, depending on
what your burdens you carry in this life that you end up having
to forgive in order to be freed from the effects of past conditions
(which Christians call sin, Buddhists call karma, others call racism,
biases, etc. that all human inherit from either nature or nurture).

the point of the Bible is there is a HAPPY ending to this,
and it isn't eternal suffering under an endless cycle of sin passed down.

By forgiveness we break the cycle and are set free.
It is only unforgiveness that keeps the cycle repeating endlessly
causing eternal suffering or hell. the point of Christ is to break that cycle,
for all humanity, when each person makes the break on the side of recovery, forgives the past and lives free of that negative conditioning.

[orangebox21]

That is the Christian god's idea of justice. People who had nothing to do with a crime are condemned because of the crime. I did not get my chance in the garden of eden. Did you?

I am not punished for the sin of Adam and Eve, I am punished for the sins I commit.

So, you are saying that there is no god who created everything? If so, then I agree, there is no one to blame for the mess that is the world. But, if it had been created by a being, then that being is to blame for the mess that we experience every day. So, make your choice: Was the world created by a god? If so, then that god is to blame for the mess it created. If not, then, well, if the world is the result of mere random chance, then there is no one to blame. But you cannot have it both ways. Either the world was created by a god or it wasn't. If it was, then the blame belongs to that creator. If it wasn't, then there is no one to blame. Of course, with this second option, there is no creator god. Is that your position, or are you just trying to weasel out of the consequences of the claims you make?

God is responsible for creating men capable of making choices, not for the choices they make.

To use a metaphor from the Bible, the potter does not properly blame the clay if the pot is poorly made. If a potter makes a bad pot, it is the fault of the potter, not the pot. If god fucks up, it is god's fault, not the thing that god made.

The metaphor you're quoting doesn't say anything about the pot being made poorly. It speaks of two pots being made from the same lump of clay, one for special use and one for ordinary. It doesn't say either are poorly made, just that they have different functions.

If I was created by an omnipotent, omniscient being, then that being chose to make me exactly what I am. Consequently, that being bears the entire responsibility for whatever I am. And that means, whatever I do as a consequence of whatever I am, is the responsibility of the being that made me what I am, if I was made by such a being.

So, was I created by such a being, or not?

Am I to then understand that you are not responsible for you actions?

If God created you then God bears the entire responsibility for who you are and what you do.

And if you were created and governed by time and natural random chance processes, then that bears the entire responsibility for who you are and what you do.

Either way, you aren't responsible for what you do. It's either God's or nature's responsibility.

[Pyrrho]

That is the Christian god's idea of justice. People who had nothing to do with a crime are condemned because of the crime. I did not get my chance in the garden of eden. Did you?

I am not punished for the sin of Adam and Eve, I am punished for the sins I commit.
...

So you were born into the Garden of Eden? If not, and you were born into a world with pain and suffering, then you have been punished for something you did not do.

[orangebox21]

I am not punished for the sin of Adam and Eve, I am punished for the sins I commit.
...

So you were born into the Garden of Eden? If not, and you were born into a world with pain and suffering, then you have been punished for something you did not do.

Let me rephrase. I am not condemned for the sins of Adam and Eve, but rather for my own sins.

[FatAndFaithless]

Condemned to what?

[Pyrrho]

I am not punished for the sin of Adam and Eve, I am punished for the sins I commit.
...

So you were born into the Garden of Eden? If not, and you were born into a world with pain and suffering, then you have been punished for something you did not do.

Let me rephrase. I am not condemned for the sins of Adam and Eve, but rather for my own sins.

So you admit that your God has punished you for something you did not do.

Your god is unworthy of worship, even if it existed.

[Tonus]

Doesn't that make him seem petulant?

You could choose to look at it that way. You could also choose to see it as a consequence of an action.

It can be both. After all, cursing the world with diseases and parasites would not be the direct consequence of Adam and Eve's action; those had already been explained to them. Anything outside of that was god piling on without cause. So yes, the creation of such things would be a consequence of an action, albeit a completely unnecessary and petty reaction.

[Wiggy]

Disease and cancer are a result of the fall from grace. Basic theology. Pain and suffering is the result of sin and we have all sinned. Non believers are an enemy of God. Now thats the bad news. The good news is that God will retore humanity as promised in his word. The word was in the beginning and shall never pass away as prophesised by Jesus. The way to salvation is first belief then as a result of that belief become. Those who believe and are baptised shall be saved. What a wonderful promise by God.

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Jesus is just all right with me. Sorry to offend beautiful people.

[Norman Humann]

Disease and cancer are a result of the fall from grace. Basic theology. Pain and suffering is the result of sin and we have all sinned.

How do you refer that to children with leukemia? Or the stillborn? Or child abuse victims?

Those who believe and are baptised shall be saved. What a wonderful promise by God.

If you so happen to be born in the right religion, you may just escape from eternal torment. What a wonderful promise, indeed.