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Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
(February 24, 2015 at 10:30 am)Ignorant Wrote: Happiness/human fulfillment is the satisfaction of all human desire.

What if one human's desires are in conflict with the desires of others (humans, animals, plants)? For example, most people would agree that fulfilling Hitler's desires were not good. I suppose a Christian might argue that Hitler did not understand his true desire to know God and was pursuing the wrong desires.

(February 24, 2015 at 10:30 am)Ignorant Wrote: Do you have any definition or explanation to offer?

I guess I'm a moral relativist. (I'm not sure what emotivist means - even after skimming the definition in Wikipedia. I don't know enough about philosophy to understand the meaning.)

Good is subjective, but processes like democracy can turn our many subjective definitions of good into a single objective definition for use in government.

Good is a metric we use for comparing possible outcomes of actions when we make choices (good for me, good for society, good for God, etc.) Of course free will may be an illusion. In that case, even subjective good is an illusion?

Sorry that's the best I can do. Smile
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
(February 23, 2015 at 11:48 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(February 23, 2015 at 8:19 pm)Helio Nimbus Wrote: Dodgy actually, artificial selection is a valid and accepted form of evolution

Artificial selection has nothing to do with natural selection, that said, neither has a thing to do with evolution, why because evolution is a thing made-up and put into books to fool people so those with giant ego problems can walk around saying look at me.

GC

Here's your word for today: Analogy. Look it up. Then read chapter one of Origins of Species (you know, that book you think you understand but have never bothered to open) and see how Darwin uses artificial selection to set up his argument in favor of natural selection in the wild. Then . . .

Oh, fuck it. Your dismal lack of curiosity and education isn't my concern.
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
How come gods morality is always identical to whichever theist you talk to? Why do they take insults about God so personally and really want others to like their God? Why do they often have such a problem with atheists?

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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
watchamadoodle Wrote:What if one human's desires are in conflict with the desires of others (humans, animals, plants)? For example, most people would agree that fulfilling Hitler's desires were not good. I suppose a Christian might argue that Hitler did not understand his true desire to know God and was pursuing the wrong desires.

According to your example, Hitler was simply wrong about what he thought was good. Therefore, any of us can simply be wrong about what we think is good. Welcome to the struggle to live a truly happy and fulfilled human life according to reason.

Quote:I guess I'm a moral relativist. (I'm not sure what emotivist means - even after skimming the definition in Wikipedia.) Good is subjective, but processes like democracy can turn that subjective definition of good into a more objective definition for use in government.

Goodness is certainly subjective, i.e. every human being must judge for themselves between things that are more, or less, good. Does that mean that nothing is actually good? It certainly wouldn't follow logically from those premises. Human experience shows that some things truly ARE good (e.g. a healthy diet actually DOES satisfy hunger and promotes health and growth), while other things truly ARE NOT good (e.g. murdering millions of people for the sake of eugenic idealogy). As many people here have illustrated, you don't really need a supernatural book to enlighten you about the goodness of many things. Also as many people have illustrated here, you don't need PhD to discover that humans frequently get goodness wrong. So that is where we should be left, in a discussion about what is ACTUALLY good for a human being, and how do human beings go about obtaining it?

Quote:Good is a metric we use for choosing our actions (good for me, good for society, good for God, etc.) Sorry that's the best I can do. Smile

That is fine. Do you think it is good for a person to enter into public discussion about what is good for humanity when that person doesn't really know what they mean by "good for humanity"? If yes, then modern political society was made for you. If no, then hopefully you would admit that our society is in a severe crisis without criteria to judge the best ways to improve.
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
What may be a healthy diet for a bunch of individuals may be harmful for others.
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
(February 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)Drich Wrote: Educate yourself before you speak. Here is a link showing what the official 'x' target was marking in operation "meeting house."
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=217

The city center (urban area) was targeted meaning the civilian population was targeted, this was not a uniformed military target.

I did not say it was a military target.

(February 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)Drich Wrote: There is a list of 14 targeted areas between March and August 1945, only 5 can be considered to be military targets. The rest were homes, and commerical areas (stores/shops)

Of course, you neglect to mention that Japanese industry was scattered in small workshops that were interspersed in the housing and business areas.

(February 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)Drich Wrote: We break the will of the people by "burning them" according to Le May. Not soldiers but the old, the women and children. We turn the might of our military usage onto the civilian population in an effort to break the will of the people or to bomb them back to their futile era.

Of course. No one is denying that.

(February 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)Drich Wrote: This is genocide.

No it is not. Genocide has the aim of exterminating a group or ethnicity. The mission of the XX Bomber Command was neither.


Quote:This genocide is what stopped the war. We fire bombed everything, then nuke them. After two A-bombs destroyed two (Untouched/purposely un bombed non military significant) cities we threatened to nuke every other previously Fire bombed city, starting with the emperial palace.

It wasn't genocide. Mass murder, perhaps.

(February 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)Drich Wrote: We in essence destroyed just about every man woman and child who held to pre war ideals.

No, we didn't. 350,000 Japanese civilians lost their lives in WWII from all causes. 2,000,000 Japanese military personnel died in the war. As of October 1940, Japan had a population of over 73 million.

(February 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)Drich Wrote: If you were to bother to look up the word genocide or even look past your God hating defination of the word you would find:

gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

That emphasized clause right there indicates the purpose of a genocidal program. What the USAAF did over Japan doesn't match that purpose; hence, it was not genocide.

Here, I'll help you out. This is the legal definition of genocide:

[Image: s4nyu1.jpg]
http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp.../res/96(I)

This is the basis of my definition -- not "hating" your imaginary friend, which would certainly be a waste of time and beneath me to dignify your idiocy with my emotional investment.

The bombing campaign over Japan, while inhumane and perhaps criminal was not genocide, because it wasn't predicated on wiping out the Japanese as a people. As soon as they surrendered, we stopped bombing them. That should be your clue that it was not an act of genocide, but rather, an act of war.

(February 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)Drich Wrote: Our actions against Japan and the others I have already mentioned a couple different times already shows that the U.S. is founded and maintained on this word.

America has certainly committed genocide. This wasn't it.

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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
Is it being argued that people commit genocide, or is the point of discussion whether or not genocide is moral? I think anyone would be hard up to find moral constraints within the spoils of war. Couldn't it be possible that morality is only descriptive of a standard of behavior? If we say that this standard is maximizing the wellbeing of all people, then certainly it can be said that there are better and worse ways of behaving in practice if not in principle. If,for example, one group did not share this ideal standard of behavior or, perhaps their idea of maximizing well being is different. Maybe their standard of behavior is based on a dogmatic ideology that the rest of the world doesn't share? And if within this standard, a higher importance is placed on the preservation of the dogma rather than human wellbeing? Of the two standards, could there be objectively better ways to behave? And one society deems human wellbeing to come before all other things, and the other society has decided that the annihilation of those who don't share their dogmatic worldview, Im inclined to say that this is an oil and water collision of human values and it's very likely that some form of genocide is going to occur. But to avoid this, it has to be agreed that the only way to have an honest discussion about morals, we have to agree that the standard worth upholding is the one that considers our actions and decisions, their effect on maximizing the well being of conscious creatures, and more specifically, values the lives of people as ends in themselves. If there is another thing more valuable than this, I can't think of what it would be.
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
(February 24, 2015 at 11:36 am)Ignorant Wrote: That is fine. Do you think it is good for a person to enter into public discussion about what is good for humanity when that person doesn't really know what they mean by "good for humanity"? If yes, then modern political society was made for you. If no, then hopefully you would admit that our society is in a severe crisis without criteria to judge the best ways to improve.

I see discussion as a way to create or refine my opinions, so I think it's o.k. to enter a discussion without a clear opinion. Of course it is also o.k. to enter a discussion with a clear opinion.

I don't know if our society is in severe crisis or not. I stopped reading the news several months ago, and I feel much, much better. I recommend it for emotional health. Smile
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
(February 24, 2015 at 1:14 am)Godschild Wrote:
(February 23, 2015 at 4:49 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Because he's extremely violent and self centered. He's a volcanic war god, after all. Or at least he used to be.

You can prove this, right, no one else has ever been able to, I'm speaking to all three assertions.

Reading the old testament makes it obvious that he's violent and self centered. In Exodus, the mountain that god is on is described in a way that makes it obvious it's a volcano. If you google Canaanite pantheon, you'll notice Yahweh at the bottom.

Quote:He completely abandons Adam and Eve as soon as they do something he doesn't like. the most he tells them is "don't do it, or you'll die". That's nice. You want to explain what die means?

I've said many time to you that you have no idea what the Bible says, you are a parrot of the unintelligent, I think you can do better, please try.
Abandoned them, really. He came to them, asking why thy were hiding, even though He knew, like a father He wanted to give them a chance to come clean. God wouldn't have told them about death without an explanation, you do remember He walked with them in the cool of the evening and they indicate they understand what death meant, they never questioned it. Please try using your own brain and stop parroting others.[/quote]

Does he interact with them again after he kicks them out? He interacts with their kids. It didn't say anything about him explaining what death was. Did he kill something in front of them?

I'm not parroting anything. I'm telling you what I understand of what I read. It seems like the authors of Genesis already understood what death meant, and came from a culture where clothing was the norm. So there's no explicit explanation of what death meant, and for some reason Adam and Eve believe being naked is bad, despite nothing else wearing clothes, and Yahweh leaving them naked.

Quote:Then he wipes out the world because fallen angels were raping women and breeding evil Humans.

That's not what the scriptures say, they do say He judged mankind guilty of total corruption and there was no hope for their redemption.[/quote]

Well that's the explanation I was told. I guess that would be parroting. In that case, I'd need a different explanation for why the whole of humanity was deemed totally corrupt, yet he allowed one guy on the arc that it's implied raped his dad when he was drunk. It's kind of like the story of Lot, where the one guy they try to save is a guy that offers his girls to be raped instead of a couple of strangers.

yahweh is a bad judge of character.

Quote: I don't know what he was doing in the meantime, or what the fallen angels were doing that turned all the demi angels evil, but he wiped them out.

You are defining what the Bible calls the sons of God as fallen angels, the Bible gives no hint of this definition. Did you come up with this one on your own, sounds like parroting again.

Quote:He messed with the language of a bunch of people because he felt threatened by a tower.

Right the God who can cause all the people to start speaking different languages felt threatened, parroting again. God was preventing the total corruption of man until a future time. it's quite obvious what the scriptures say on this.[/quote]

Well that's what the bible says. Yahweh is worried they'd get to heaven, and that nothing would be out of their reach, so he destroyed their tower. I'm not sure why building a tower that would keep the tribes from being separated would cause them to become corrupt.

Quote:He brought slaves out of Egypt after making sure they weren't released before he had the chance to kill a bunch of children, down to the young of slaves and animals.

Again you show how little you know of the scriptures and the more you post the more convinced I become you are a parrot only.
God gave Pharaoh several chances to let His people go, Pharaoh was not given any set amount of chances. God hardened his heart to prove to Pharaoh and Egypt that He was the Most High and powerful God and none of his stone and wooden gods could help him. Egypt paid the penalty of disobedience of God.[/quote]

At one point Yahweh said he would harden Pharaoh's heart, so he couldn't say no. After that he killed a bunch of children.

Quote: Then he had Moses kill some of his followers for breaking a rule he came up with after they decided to start worshiping another god of their pantheon, as polytheists tend to do sometimes.

They were guilty of Egypt's and Pharaoh's sin, believing there were other gods, especially after seeing what God did for them in Egypt. Their punishment came because they refused to repent, unforgiven sin against a forgiving God.[/quote]

Unless you were a Zoroastrian, you were polytheistic. There was no law Yahweh gave that spoke against worshiping other gods, in fact when snakes are poisoning them, he tells them to makes staffs with a snake's head, which is related to a different deity, to heal them. A similar symbol that's put on ambulances and hospitals today.

Then they wander for 40 years, decide to pray to a different god of their pantheon, and Yahweh gets angry because they started doing this before Moses came down with a tablet saying they shouldn't do it.

Quote: then he had them kill people who inhabited land he wanted to give to his followers.

That was the place God had chosen for them and promised to them, these people abandoned God at the Tower of Babel and continued to worship wood and stone. These people were punished because of their ungodly acts against the only God, they were judged guilty by their creator, the One they rejected.[/quote]

He's quite the petty god to kill people just because they're not worshiping him. Why is his favorite way of showing his presence mass murder?

Quote:The old testament is filled with violence, and all to supposedly raise up one group of people, because he made friends with a guy once and promised him a long lineage.

The whole world was filled with violence then and now, most of which has nothing to do with God, most of it is because there's no belief in the God who created. The OT shows the violence that man brought to this world and about the One who was coming to redeem mankind. God did choose Abraham as a friend, He did so to raise up a people to show the world the Savior of all peoples.[/quote]

I don't really see Humans doing anything that Yahweh doesn't also do.

Quote: I don't know why he does it, except to say he's a psychopath who acts as many people do when there's no one around to dope slap them if they do something wrong.

The reason you do not know is because it's easier to parrot than to actually study and learn.[/quote]

No thanks. I find the bible a poor read.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
It's interesting that the original sin was to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Supposedly we have the knowledge of good and evil, but we can't define those terms. That makes me suspicious that we have been framed for a crime we didn't commit.
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