Proof of God

[LostLocke]

A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”

― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space

Sagan, to me, has to be one of the greatest speakers/writers of the modern time. He can, in one phrase, both knock down religion and yet do it in such a way that he still manages to show it a degree of respect.

[The Grand Nudger]

On that note...if anyone would be interested to see what elaboration on Sagans point -could- look like....
http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Nature-Do...0791454541


It had me at hello.

"we need not go any further than nature to probe the depths of our existence and powers that sustain our being."

[Fidel_Castronaut]

This thread is a pile of arse.

Op, I hope you feel bad.

[Harris]

You used a lot of words, but you still haven't described what ultimate happiness is.
Everyone would have to have their own private version of Heaven, because what ultimately makes you happy may not ultimately make me happy.

You should first make a distinction between happiness and pleasure. Happiness is not synonymous with pleasure, particularly of the ‘lower’ or ‘animal’ sort. Human happiness comes from developing and using uniquely human powers - reason, logic, the love of truth and beauty  to their fullest extent hence this leads people toward the right sorts of associations: to find truth pleasurable and error painful; to delight in doing right and experience pain in doing wrong.

To attain happiness, you need to know what goods to pursue and how to pursue them. But in the absence of a science of good and evil, pleasure is your main criterion of the good, displeasure the main criterion of bad. Both pain and pleasure, however, are unreliable guides to the good and bad. You may find a thing pleasant on one occasion and call it ‘good’, only to change your mind later. Two people can react differently to the same thing, so that it produces pleasure in one and pain in the other, and is called ‘good’ and ‘not good’ simultaneously. Pleasure biases judgment in favour of the nearer and more intense good, even if the cost of pursuing this good is displeasure later, and so on. Part of the correction to these distortions is to judge the good of various things not by how they feel when they are enjoyed or shunned, but by the consequences of enjoying or shunning them. If the costs of the consequences outweigh the present benefits, then a supposed good may be merely an apparent good.

All this I have elaborated just to envisage that matter is not the mean to formless happiness. The material forms only prepare the way for the reception of the immaterial forms. Knowledge is the intellect’s grasp of the immaterial forms, the pure essences or universals that constitute the natures of things, and human happiness is achieved only through the intellect’s grasp of such universals.

Since the deepest happiness of a rational being is found in, and to be derived from, rational activity of the noblest sort, and since God is the one who, above all, is worth our being in rational contact with, our deepest happiness is to be achieved by gaining rational, intellectual contact with God. In general, it is not just the activity of exercising reason that gives us happiness, but the love of the object known, which is the intrinsic accompaniment of achieving the goal of the activity - namely, coming to know.

True happiness is not possible in this life. The desire for happiness is a natural but obscure awareness in each human person that their goal is union with the supreme good. Since the supreme good is God, it follows that there is a natural but obscure desire for union with God, and this union is the supernatural end for which every human being was created.

“Human reality is the pure effort to become God without there being any given substratum for that effort, without there being anything which so endeavours. Desire expresses this endeavour.”

Page 576
Being and Nothingness
Jean-Paul Sartre

“Thus, my freedom is a choice of being God and all my acts, all my projects translate this choice and reflect it in a thousand and one ways, for there is an infinity of ways of being and of ways of having.”

Page 599
Being and Nothingness
Jean-Paul Sartre

You talk of justice, and yet you have an omnipotent God who has allowed my daughter to be raped.  And statistics show that most rapists have either brain damage or a history of abuse in their own lives.  God has allowed the brain damage or the history of abuse.  And the brain damage is a result of genetic abnormalities or exposure to harmful substances in development.  God has allowed the genetic abnormalities or exposure to harmful substances.

If I am not mistaken, you seem to be little lost in your conviction of your truth.

First, you wanted to spread peace by turning your other cheek then you hopped over blaming God for the rape of your daughter, and next perhaps you would show your indifferent attitude to the morals since without God good and bad have no meanings.

If you want to discuss issues related to ‘the problem of evil’ then you should first read my article ‘the problem of evil in atheism and in Islam.’

http://atheistforums.org/thread-30896.html

You have people with animal instincts, especially procreation.  But, tell me, what is the punishment for the crime of sex outside a relationship sanctioned by the laws and rituals of ancient desert people? Is it not death, if your religious texts are interpreted literally?

Sexual sins in the first category are the worst: unnatural vice flouts nature by transgressing its basic principles of sexuality, so it is in this matter the gravest of sins. To the list of reasons unnatural sexual acts are wrong - they are dishonest, cruel, unfair, manipulative, coercive, exploitative, selfish or negligently dangerous. Mutual consent is, in the absence of third-party harm, sufficient for the morality of sexual acts and no law of God or nature need supplement this basic principle of proper relations among humans who are intelligent beings.

It is evident that the bringing up of a human child requires the care of a mother who nurses him, and much more the care of a father, under whose guidance and guardianship his earthly needs are supplied and his character developed. Therefore, indiscriminate intercourse is against human nature. The union of one man with one woman is postulated, and with her he remains, not for a little while, but for a long period, or even for a whole lifetime.

Adultery in Islam is one of the most heinous and deadliest of sins. The punishment of this sin for unmarried people is 100 lashes. If married people commit this sin then penalty is DEATH BY STONING. However, this law is much older than the RITUALS OF ANCIENT DESERT PEOPLE.

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
Lev 20:10 (KJV)

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
Lev 20:13 (KJV)

“A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: THEY SHALL STONE THEM WITH STONES: their blood shall be upon them.”
Lev 20:27 (KJV)

“If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.”
Deut 22:22 (KJV)

Is it not by each man's nature that he sins or does not sin?  

Indeed, we (people) are the blend of virtue and vice. Virtue and vice are intellectual states. Vice is founded on passions: these are at root false value judgments, in which we lose rational control by overvaluing things, which are in fact indifferent. Virtue, a set of sciences governing moral choice, is the one thing of intrinsic worth and therefore genuinely good.

Because virtues and vices are settled practices of deliberately choosing good and bad courses of action and in parallel people have power of self-control therefore, punishment for deliberate sin is inevitable.

And why doesn't God, knowing the nature of each man, provide for him the remedy to the spiritual illnesses that doom some to crime, and make others naturally avoid it?

Remedy of spiritual illness (vice) is virtue. Along with vice and virtue God has given us freedom of choice and power of self-control. Our choices are deliberate acts therefore; we are accountable for our deeds.

Tell me, if God has decreed that a particular act is deserving of death, why do idolaters or harlots or adulterers not simply die on the spot?  Why do some escape uncaught, while others who are innocent of the crimes get stoned to death by uneducated savages?

No.  Your whole failed concept of freewill and justice depends on accepting the fairy tale of an afterlife, with a just God presiding over it. You insist that the many cruelties and injustices in the actual world are repaid in an afterlife, of which there is no evidence, and for which their is no reason to hold a belief except the deep desire that the world, which is clearly not justice, actually turn out upon the revelation of death to be just after all.

All right, you have no evidence of God that means “NO GOD.” Let it be so. Without God:

• Universe came out of nothing,
• Life appeared on earth by accident, and
• Intelligence happened by lucky mutation.

In this entire scenario what is the meaning of GOOD and what is the meaning of BAD. Nothingness, accident, and chance do not know GOOD and do not know BAD. If GOOD and BAD have no meanings then on what bases are you fighting for JUSTICE. What is motivating you to turn your other cheek to spread peace? What is peace when everything is popping out of chance and accident? Universe is doing what it supposed to do similarly rapist is doing what he is supposed to do. What makes you feel agitated on the idea of rape of your daughter when your daughter is indifferent to the universe and nature?

“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?” Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.” A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”

― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space

“Who has created the seven heavens one above another, you can see no fault in the creations of the Most Beneficent. Then look again: "Can you see any rifts?"
Al Mulk (67)
-Verse 3-

Ask Sagan whether he has found any fault in the Universe.

Things do not ever begin to exist. The atoms just get reassembled into different patterns.

That sounds atoms are eternal. They never got birth and they will never die. Is it true?

All our observations tell us that energy cannot be created nor destroyed so evidence is that the universe is eternal in one form or another.

• Is there any observation that tells exactly how much energy universe holds?
• Did someone proved whether total energy of expanding universe is increasing, decreasing, or constant?
• Has someone came up with the observation that energy is not the product of Big Bang?

All physical laws (including laws of thermodynamics) have their specific frames within which they are perfectly applicable however beyond the limits of their pertinence, they become invalid. I will end by giving one example.

Universal gravitational law works just fine in the realm of conceivable universe in terms of human senses. The same gravitational law fail in the quantum realm.

Laws of thermodynamics work well in the observable universe but there are scientific explanatory gaps between a conceivable universe and beyond big bang. This is a big hurdle for the scientists and they cannot give even an educated guess for the existence of physical laws beyond Big Bang or outside the edge of the universe.

We are talking about beyond big bang and outside the edge of universe, within universe there are Black holes which boggle the minds of all scientists as all physical laws collapses inside the Event Horizon.

Stimbo Wrote: A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”

― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space

LostLocke Wrote: Sagan, to me, has to be one of the greatest speakers/writers of the modern time. He can, in one phrase, both knock down religion and yet do it in such a way that he still manages to show it a degree of respect.

“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?”
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-

“With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.”
Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47-

Compare these verses with the phenomenon of Big Bang and expanding universe.

If you think that man has written Quran then let Sagan explain how some illiterate and uneducated man in the community of ignorant and arrogant Arabs in the middle of a desert could have written these verses about 1,500 years back.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think that's going to be alot harder for you to explain, than..say..me.

-It didn't happen.  "Mo' knew jack shit about a big bang...how could he have known....but you do.   See, explained.

.....now, if you could explain how an illiterate and uneducated man in a community of ignorant and arrogant muslims in the middle of the desert could have come by such knowledge...1,500 years ago......that'd be great!

[robvalue]

Any comment on ripping off my maths equations and writing unrelated stuff next to them in order to bolster an argument from ignorance?

[Pizza]

Why do people like Harris come here just to talk at us and not with us?

[Zen Badger]

So you think those bits of the quaran are actually talking about the Big Bang?
So do you think the universe is 14 billion years old?
Or do you think it is 6000 years old?

[robvalue]

I don't understand why theists are impressed when a book supposedly inspired by God gets a few things right.

I have a higher standard for science textbooks than they do for their infallible books.

Hell, I have a higher standard for emails I write.

[bennyboy]

If I am not mistaken, you seem to be little lost in your conviction of your truth.

First, you wanted to spread peace by turning your other cheek then you hopped over blaming God for the rape of your daughter, and next perhaps you would show your indifferent attitude to the morals since without God good and bad have no meanings.

Nothing about the Bible, or God, or Allah, is my truth, and I need to express no conviction in it. I do not accept your definition of a good God, because I can see much evil in the world, much of it inflicted on the innocent. I do not accept your definition of a just God, because I see foul swine who live and prosper, and pure children who are struck with disease and death.

Sexual sins in the first category are the worst: unnatural vice flouts nature by transgressing its basic principles of sexuality, so it is in this matter the gravest of sins. To the list of reasons unnatural sexual acts are wrong - they are dishonest, cruel, unfair, manipulative, coercive, exploitative, selfish or negligently dangerous. Mutual consent is, in the absence of third-party harm, sufficient for the morality of sexual acts and no law of God or nature need supplement this basic principle of proper relations among humans who are intelligent beings.

Bullshit. I do not believe that the Koran, or the culture which claims to adhere to it, care about mutual consent. Did women consent to be held under the thumbs of petty and jealous men?

It is evident that the bringing up of a human child requires the care of a mother who nurses him, and much more the care of a father, under whose guidance and guardianship his earthly needs are supplied and his character developed. Therefore, indiscriminate intercourse is against human nature. The union of one man with one woman is postulated, and with her he remains, not for a little while, but for a long period, or even for a whole lifetime.

And so you and yours impose these rules on others. Where, then, is their free will? Their freedom is to follow the views of scum like you, or to face punishment. What hubris you have, to think that you are capable of judging what is right or wrong, or that God needs your assistance in either judgment or in execution of punishment.

Adultery in Islam is one of the most heinous and deadliest of sins. The punishment of this sin for unmarried people is 100 lashes. If married people commit this sin then penalty is DEATH BY STONING. However, this law is much older than the RITUALS OF ANCIENT DESERT PEOPLE.

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
Lev 20:10 (KJV)

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
Lev 20:13 (KJV)

“A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: THEY SHALL STONE THEM WITH STONES: their blood shall be upon them.”
Lev 20:27 (KJV)

“If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.”
Deut 22:22 (KJV)

You just quoted a bunch of ancient desert people. Time to join the 21st century, and benefit from the experiences of people who have discovered refrigeration (pork is okay now, dude) and personal hygiene (no more fear of "unclean" women on their *gasp* periods*), and running water.

Indeed, we (people) are the blend of virtue and vice. Virtue and vice are intellectual states. Vice is founded on passions: these are at root false value judgments, in which we lose rational control by overvaluing things, which are in fact indifferent. Virtue, a set of sciences governing moral choice, is the one thing of intrinsic worth and therefore genuinely good.

Because virtues and vices are settled practices of deliberately choosing good and bad courses of action and in parallel people have power of self-control therefore, punishment for deliberate sin is inevitable.

If your God is real, then it truly is inevitable. Why, then, do Muslim men take it upon themselves to establish these punishments and bring them to fruition? Is God too weak to judge his own creations by his own hand?

Remedy of spiritual illness (vice) is virtue. Along with vice and virtue God has given us freedom of choice and power of self-control. Our choices are deliberate acts therefore; we are accountable for our deeds.

Maybe, but not to you, or to your mosque, or to your uneducated leaders. If God is real, then let God judge me. But don't constantly declare your lack of faith in the reality of God by insisting that Dark Age punishments like stoning of raped women could be permissible in the eyes of a just God. If God is real, then my primary sin is that of using the senses He gave me, and the mind he bestowed on me, to consider ideas critically. You will fare much worse, as you support the suffering of others inflicted at the hand of proud men in the name of a God who could never have wanted such suffering.

You, and your outdated religion, are an offense to any real God who might exist.